Mary and Meredith discuss "Before Us" from the Wilco album Ode To Joy as well as generational inheritance, Aeolian harps, and a time when wars would end. They also go on more Neil Young tangents, and introduce a brand new Tom Waits tangent.
(Theme music fades in: guitar strumming, slide guitar glides in. Music fades out as the co-hosts Mary MacLane Mellas and Meredith Hobbs Coons begin to speak.)
Meredith: Welcome-
Mary: -back-
Meredith: -to-
Mary: Wilco Will Love You-
Meredith: -a podcast by fans about the music and influence of-
Mary: -Wilco.
Meredith: Hello, Mary.
Mary: Hello, Meredith.
Meredith: Welcome to you! To your own house. (Laughs).
Mary: Yes! Yes. Glad to be here.
Meredith: I laughed pretty hard at my own joke just then.
Mary: (Laughs).
Meredith: You know what... I enjoy myself. And that's all-
Mary: Own it.
Meredith: -preferable, I think, to the alternative.
Mary: Of being embarrassed.
Meredith: Of hating myself.
Mary: (Laughs) of hating yourself.
Meredith: I've come a long way.
Mary: None of that.
Meredith: Yeah. I think I've dabbled in that. I've certainly lived there for a while... in my life. But-
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: -you know, I'm at a pretty good place.
Mary: We've all been there.
Meredith: I'm at a pretty good place now.
Mary: Yeah, that's good.
Meredith: I've transitioned to hating other people.
Mary: (Laughs) that's great. Good start, right?
Meredith: Great start. Thank you.
Mary: We love Wilco.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: Because Wilco loves all of us.
Meredith: That's right. (Laughs).
Mary: That's what they said.
Meredith: That is what they said.
Mary: I'm just saying what they said.
Meredith: You know, they've got to live up to that.
Mary: I know. They do.
Meredith: You can't throw it out there, say it's true, and then walk it back. And as far as I know, they haven't walked it back.
Mary: But they also said "love is everywhere... beware."
Meredith: Ooh.
Mary: So beware that Wilco loves you.
Meredith: (Sings "Look Out For My Love" by Neil Young)
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: Why am I touching on Neil Young so much? (Laughs).
Mary: You've talked about Neil Young a lot. Neil's - I feel like - influence is astronomical.
Meredith: Oh, yeah.
Mary: But Wilco has a very far influence as well.
Meredith: I think so.
Mary: Everything influences everything else in music.
Meredith: I think Neil Young has probably influenced Wil-co!
Mary: I'm very sure.
Meredith: Yeah, I feel like I've read that.
Mary: It rings a bell.
Meredith: Old Black, baby!
Mary: Yeah?
Meredith: Neil Young's guitar's name is Old Black for those who are- (laughs) who don't know.
Mary: I didn't know.
Meredith: Oh, you didn't?
Mary: No.
Meredith: Oh!
Mary: New fun fact for me.
Meredith: You're welcome. Okay. And welcome!
Mary: Yes. Welcome! We're gonna start talking about "Before Us." Second track from Ode to Joy. I think we talked about this in the last podcast, that "Bright Leaves" really transitions well into this song. And one of the first things that we both noticed is that kick drum that just keeps going. And it's really a great drum sound.
Meredith: It is. It's really great. We're talking about "Bright Leaves" here.
Mary: Yeah. But then it continues into the beginning of "Before Us."
Meredith: Oh right. That, too.
Mary: (Mimicking kick drum) Doom-doom. It's great.
Meredith: So. Let's listen.
Mary: Okay. We're gonna listen to "Before Us" before we get too off the rails here.
Meredith: And are you as well? Remains to be seen.
Mary: Yeah, you can pause this podcast and listen to the song. We'll probably play some of the song in here.
Meredith: We'll play it for you. But not the whole thing- 'cause, come on.
Mary: All right here is "Before Us" by Wilco.
(Music fades in: heavy kick drum, bass, chimes, shaker, hammer-on guitar part, unison singing "Alone with the people who have come before" twice. The third time, a harmony is introduced and the line concludes "Alone with the people who have come before us." The guitar enters again, and the clip fades out.)
Mary: All right, we are back from listening to "Before Us."
Meredith: Which was beautiful.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: I don't know how to sound sincere, coming back (laughs) from listening to it, even though I feel so much-
Mary: -I know-
Meredith: -when I listen. And then when the mic comes back on, I'm like (sarcastic tone) "What a great song that was," and it just sounds like I don't mean it. But I do.
Mary: Yeah
Meredith: This is actually one of my favorite ones. I might say that about all of them, just fair warning. Just from a feel aspect, the way it makes me feel to hear it. It sounds meditative to me.
Mary: It has this very steady drum, like... it's almost like a marching beat.
Meredith: That's what I was just going to say when I hear it and it has that meditative quality. And the- um- just the little progression there?
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: It makes me think I am walking up a mountain with a walking stick... very proudly.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And I'm proud and I'm walking I like I've gotten to the top on, like, a difficult hike.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And I'm arriving at the peak. That's how I feel listening to it.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: Actually, the image in my head (laughs) is of Jeff Tweedy with a little walking stick-
Mary: -yeah!-
Meredith: -reaching the top of a mountain.
Mary: Mountaineer Jeff. I love it. It's actually really interesting because I feel like this song is, how you said, meditative, because I feel like this song is kind of a meditation on, like, history and, like, generations. This feels, like a generational- for me, I had like generational ties, because when he's like, "I remember when wars would end/ Remember when wars would end?" and like his kids. couldn't say that-
Meredith: -right-
Mary: -because of all the Middle East conflicts that's been happening-
Meredith: -perpetual-
Mary: -since I was born, at least.
Meredith: Mhm.
Mary: So that was- that lyric really stood out to me. I was like, "yep," something I've thought about before. So it wasn't this epiphany, but it was- that's the fact that he would say that, like, "I remember that."
Meredith: Right.
Mary: And then he's speaking directly to the listener, "do you remember," and probably thinking about his own kids- would not remember.
Meredith: Yeah. And this from the band who announced that there was a war on war-
Mary: -(Laughs) yeah-
Meredith: -if you'll recall.
Mary: (Sings the beginning of "War on War" from the Wilco album Yankee Hotel Foxtrot) Yep.
Meredith: Thought I'd remind you. (Laughs).
Mary: Yes.
Meredith: I love that song, too.
Mary: Starting right at the beginning of the song. We talked about misheard lyrics in the last one, and I had a misheard lyric... that I just realized, because I'm looking at the lyrics, but this definitely makes more sense than what I thought it was. It says, "I'm surprised staring at the knives/ Lying silent in the drawer." I thought it was, "staring at the night."
Meredith: Oh, yeah.
Mary: "I'm surprised, staring at the night, lying silent in the drawer," which would imply that he's lying in the drawer. Not that the knives are lying in the drawer. So it totally makes more sense this way.
Meredith: Or is the night in the drawer? Now we're getting to all kinds of places, like a blackness-
Mary: -interdimensional crazy time here-
Meredith: -(Laughs) it's like Men in Black, "the galaxy is on Orion's belt," no?
Mary: The wardrobe.
Meredith: Anybody? (Laughs) and it was the collar on the dog!
Mary: I know (laughs) and then you have... yeah, all kinds of portals-
Meredith: -uh huh-
Mary: -in unexpected places.
Meredith: Yeah, that first verse... the knives... lying silent in the drawer-
Mary: Mhmm. Kind of like violent-ish, like, foreboding imagery?
Meredith: But I like that- he's sort of saying that they're powerless unless someone is wielding them, but then the guitar makes a sound of its own will, just when the door opens, and so I think it's kind of saying that music and the good vibes (laughs) in life- maybe- they don't need to be summoned like that. They come. They don't need to be wielded by anybody.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: Summoned is the wrong word. But they don't need to be wielded by a person with intent. They're just there if you're aware of them, and sort of looking for that, and your ears and-
Mary: -yeah-
Meredith: -senses are awakened.
Mary: The other interesting interpretation is someone, like, looking at knives. And then they're surprised by noise. And it's kind of like-
Meredith: -mm, right-
Mary: -you know, where you're like getting freaked out?
Meredith: Uh huh.
Mary: And then, like, something, like- happens that you don't expect.
Meredith: Right. Right.
Mary: So that's like, what it makes me feel like when you're carrying a knife across the kitchen to go do something else. And you're kind of like, "this is weird and sharp and could hurt me," and like, you don't want to be like surprised in that moment. I mean, it could be a really dark verse. Like, to me, it reads really dark.
Meredith: Yeah, that's interesting, because I read it... maybe, just, my Age of the Romantics class in college has primed me to, um, see certain imagery when it's presented. But, um, when I think of the guitar making a noise on its own, when the door opens-
Mary: -yeah-
Meredith: -I think of Samuel Taylor Coleridge and the Aeolian harp, which is a concept that I've- been really fascinated by it over the years. I actually put it into one of my songs. (Laughs).
Mary: Oh! There you go!
Meredith: But the Aeolian harp was something- they don't really... have them around now. But in his era, it was a common... I don't know, maybe it wasn't common. Maybe it was a rich people thing. But it was like a little... stringed instrument.
Mary: Okay.
Meredith: But the idea was that you would leave it on the windowsill, and that the wind would play it.
Mary: Oh.
Meredith: Nobody plays it, but it's making this music of its own... volition. That's where my mind went, just because I've been preoccupied by that concept ever since I took that class years ago (laughs). And, um-
Mary: -that's great-
Meredith: -and so maybe I'm looking for Aeolian harps in everything. Maybe I learned something about myself right now, and I just go right past the knives to, like, "Whoa! The guitar is kind of like an Aeolian harp when it's hung on the wall (laughs) and anything knocks up against the wall."
Mary: Yeah, I like that interpretation actually.
Meredith: Oh thank you. After you said yours, I was like, "Ooh, yeah. That's probably more accurate" (laughs). That's okay.
Mary: Sounds like yours is more accurate.
Meredith: There's a lot of room here for... all kinds of things.
Mary: There is. There is. So, "Alone with the people who have come before/ I'm high for the people who have come before."
Meredith: How do you interpret that?
Mary: I really don't... really know how to interpret that. Well, the next verse about the, like, "I remember/ remember?" That's why this song makes me think of, like, generations... in the past.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: And I don't necessarily know what Tweedy is trying to say about the past?
Meredith: Yeeeah.
Mary: Kind of like talking about that then-versus-now. Not necessarily romanticizing it, but he's saying, like, "Now when something's dead/ We try to kill it again," and wars would end but now they don't.
Meredith: Yeah, I like that line a lot, um, "When something's dead/ We try to kill it again," because (laughs) yeah, a lot of the wars that have been happening have been in the same places.
Mary: Yep.
Meredith: It's just over and over.
Mary: And then the people before us... "Alone with the people who have come before us."
Meredith: Well, it's almost like we're kind of left with this inheritance that we have to contend with. But even when we're by ourselves, and we think that we're acting independently on... our desires, or just living our lives, we're forced to contend with these structures that people before us have set up, these institutions... and, um, even just customs and the culture... we inherit it. And we have to sort of be intentional to change any of it. But really, sometimes it can feel... like we're really alone with it, but especially when we feel really powerless against... some of the things that... we're faced with that... we've inherited. Or even, like, scaling that back from this broad, structural interpretation, that can also be taken as just the.. things that we inherent from- inherit- from our attachment styles and things that have happened in our families and things that we're still working through that none of us wanted or willed into our lives. They just were there. And we have to sort through it.
Mary: That kind of hit a chord for me with the fact that it says, "alone with the people." Not really alone, but like maybe alone in other ways. I don't even know if I have anything to add to what you just said, because I think that, like, really hit it.
Meredith: Well thank you. While we're talking about, "alone with the people who have come before us," I feel like all the voices that come in there may be a little bit on the nose, but I don't mind. I don't care at all.
Mary: No.
Meredith: I like sort of choral singing, and I feel like it serves the song, and if they'd shied away from it, I think I would have been disappointed.
Mary: Oh, I totally agree.
Meredith: Just because I like the sound of it. I could see a world where they went, "Oh, are we really gonna have everybody sing on..."
Mary: And everyone's pretty much singing and- there's some harmony, but it's some unison as well.
Meredith: Mhmm. Mhmm.
Mary: So it's really- it is kind of like this chorus of... Wilco.
Meredith: But I like it. I wouldn't change a thing.
Mary: I do, too.
Meredith: Yeah. And another sound thing that was interesting was... when it starts off, there's this kind of a... you can hear, like, something bumping up against the microphone and you think like, "Oh, yeah, that's- they kind of left some studio bleed in there, some kind of ambient noise that's just, like, the room and, and stuff." And then it gets into the actual song. And you realize that they're kind of playing that like an instrument.
Mary: It's very intentional.
Meredith: Like, what are they doing in that microphone?
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: That's what I want to know.
Mary: There's are many sounds in Wilco albums that I just really wish I knew what it was. They are so creative in the studio. And I think that they have that kind of freedom, because they have their own studio, they can just experiment and like, try things. And it's so cool that they've gotten to that point, because I think that's one of the reasons why they're kind of, like, moving up. This album is so excellent, because they have the time and the freedom of not having-
Meredith: -and the resources-
Mary: -and the resources of not being like kind of beholden to a label-
Meredith: -and what they can provide.
Mary: Yeah. And they have the trust of their-
Meredith: -collaborators-
Mary: -the powers that be and collaborators, that they can really do some cool stuff that a lot of- I feel like a lot of bands kind of don't get to that point till later in their career if they ever make it that far.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: And longevity is a huge theme of Wilco, I feel like, because... they started in '94, which is the year I was born.
Meredith: Wow.
Mary: So I'm always like, "Oh. How old is Wilco? They're 26." (Laughs) So it's- it's great. I love that connection to them.
Meredith: Yeah. That's very fitting now that you say that.
Mary: Yeah. And I didn't discover Wilco until I was like, 14. So it's not like I literally had them my whole life. But it's still kind of what I found that I was like "Ah!"
Meredith: Yeah, that's very cool.
Mary: Yeah. They've gone through, obviously, a lot of iterations.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: But they have two original members, which is actually kind of incredible-
Meredith: -it is-
Mary: -for a 26 year old band. And the fact that they're doing this innovative, experimental stuff, and they're not just doing the same old thing that, like, they started out with. That's why I keep coming back to them, because I know it's always going to be a fresh... sound and-
Meredith: -yeah-
Mary -fresh perspective, and-
Meredith: I agree with all of that, except the- um- that I don't have that little birth year connection. That's very special and unique to you. (Laughs)
Mary: I know. It's fine.
Meredith: I was kind of thinking, I know this isn't the Tom Waits podcast, but I just- when I thought of the whole microphone thing, I was thinking about some of his studio stuff, like putting a mic on chicken as it's cooking for the little pops-
Mary: -whoa!-
Meredith: -and incorporating that in.
Mary: Oh, wow!
Meredith: I read a book about him where they were talking about on- on Rain Dogs, how to get the percussion sound on one of the songs, they got an old dresser in there. And they just beat it up.
Mary: So cool.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: And like, I feel like a lot of Wilco's kind of sound experiments are electronic as well.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: When you loaned me that book, um, The Wilco Book-
Meredith: -yeah-
Mary: -kind of one of the reasons they brought in Michael Jorgensen is because they had made these crazy soundscapes on Yankee and then they needed a way to be able to play them live. And so he helped them program synth, which is really cool. I love that they use-
Meredith: -it's a good skill.
Mary: Yeah, like I mean, Nels is so talented with his... guitar sounds, like, he's a mad scientist... of guitar sounds. So it's really cool. And then I feel like Michael is the one who's doing a lot of the keys and creating sounds that way. Some of their sounds, I'm sure, are like made with objects.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: Found objects. But I think a lot of what they do is like really creative programming.
Meredith: And I bet there's a combination. We'll have to ask them someday.
Mary: That would be great.
Meredith: Does that about do it for "Before Us?"
Mary: I think so.
Meredith: We dug into it.
Mary: We did. It was good.
Meredith: So then next time, we've got "One and a Half Stars-"
Mary: -I really like "One and a Half Stars-"
Meredith: -and I feel like, as I was saying that, that I was telling people how we've been reviewed on this podcast. (Laughs).
Mary: One and a half stars!
Meredith: But it doesn't even apply that way, you know? Yeah. Next time, we will discuss "One and a Half Stars."
Mary: Yes we will.
Meredith: Please don't give us one and a half stars. (Laughs)
Mary: Or you can and it'll be a thing. We'll plan on having one and a half stars.
Meredith: Ooh! Maybe.
Mary: Okay, so until next time when we discuss "One and a Half Stars."
Meredith: Remember-
Mary: -and... yes?-
Meredith: -that Wilco will love you.
Mary: Yeah, always remember that.
Meredith: Always remember.
Mary: Always remember and uh... you know, subscribe to us on your favorite podcasting avenue. Whatever that may be. And tell people who are Wilco fans about this podcast.
Meredith: And... email us.
Mary: Email us with questions and comments and like, ideas for future episodes because we're just getting started and getting our feet wet in this whole podcasting world and talking about Wilco, and we want this to be a community, really, because that's what makes it fun. If other people want to talk to us.
Meredith: That again is wwlypodcast@gmail.com.
Mary: For the email and for the Instagram .Talk to us either way. Follow along. Instagram is probably the best way to get notified of new episodes because I'm sure that we will, uh, post them there and... other fun content... behind the scenes... maybe. (Laughs).
Meredith: Maybe.
Mary: We'll try our best.
Meredith: We'll see how we feel about it.
Mary: Good. All right.
Meredith: Okie dokie.
Mary: Till next time-
Meredith: Bye bye!
Mary: Bye!
(Outro: Wilco Will Love You is co-hosted by Mary MacLane and me, Meredith Coons. It is Edited by Greta Stromquist and recorded at Portola Studios. Theme music by Adam Nash. You can rate and review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe at Apple Podcasts, or wherever you prefer to listen, so that you don't miss an episode.)