Mary and Meredith discuss the song "Bright Leaves" from the Wilco album Ode To Joy, reference snowy places they've lived and been, and go on some Neil Young tangents. Plus, will the co-hosts start a band?
(Theme music fades in: guitar strumming, slide guitar glides in. Music fades out as the co-hosts Mary MacLane Mellas and Meredith Hobbs Coons begin to speak.)
Meredith: Hello, Mary.
Mary: Hello, Meredith.
Meredith: Hello... listeners. What is this anyway? Where are we doing with ourselves and our lives?
Mary: We are really curious to have some conversations about Wilco because Wilco has been a pretty significant part of both of our lives, I'd say, from what we've talked about and realize that there was a lack of Wilco related podcasts out there.
Meredith: A dearth, really.
Mary: Yes.
Meredith: Really, and truly.
Mary: So hopefully, you know, someone out there will get something out of this and at least we will by having some good conversations.
Meredith: We're filling a void is what we're doing. It's a public good, I think. Yeah.
Mary: I mean, it can't do any harm.
Meredith: No, that's a good point. (Laughs) What this is, really, is Wilco Will Love You: A podcast by fans about the music and influence of Wilco.
Mary: Yes. So... could obviously go beyond Wilco because Wilco has influenced a lot of artists of the 21st century - 20th and 21st century,
Meredith: They do have influence.
Mary: Yeah, they're great discovers of indie music. I often find some of my favorite bands just by seeing who they're touring with. And that's a really cool thing. Okay, first on our agenda for discussion would therefore be the song "Bright Leaves," which is the opening track of their new record Ode to Joy - which for the record, I'll just say off the bat is one of my favorite opening tracks of any Wilco album. There's something about the mood it sets for this album, and the percussive punchiness. Oh, and the strident vocals! I just like... oh, man, it just really like...
Meredith: Gets you there.
Mary: Yeah. And then it how it goes - segues - into "Before Us." Let's see, it's gonna be hard to not just talk about it's gonna be hard to talk about just one song, because I feel like this album works very well together.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: The segue into "Before Us," for me, is very suited. It really works. And it kind of that sets a whole new mood that still kind of like helps "Bright Leaves."
Meredith: Alright, so let's listen to "Bright Leaves."
(Music: Jeff Tweedy's strident vocal, over a punchy drum beat, fades in) Somehow we're bright leaves/ You and I beneath the old snow/ Being set free by the winter rain/ And I know it'll never change (Bright Leaves fades out)
Mary: So we just listened to "Bright Leaves."
Meredith: Mhmm, this was a hell of a listen.
Mary: It was. I've been listening to that song a lot lately. It was actually kind of a little bit of a different experience than I've had before.
Meredith: Because we listened on much better speakers.
Mary: Yeah, I've been listening in my car a lot. which is how I tend to listen to music pretty much exclusively these days.
Meredith: Yeah, Neil Young would be so mad at you.
Mary: I know. Gosh, Neil...
Meredith: Note to self: Never meet Neil Young. Just kidding.
Mary: Neil's an American citizen now. Did you see that?
Meredith: Oh, yeah? Well, good for him! Look at him go!
Mary: He posted this really funny video on his Instagram, was like, (singing) "proud to be a Can-erican," which I thought was like the cutest Canadian American hybrid. Right?! Especially because it was Neil and a little American flag, like a toothpick American flag. It's about time.
Meredith: Well good for him!
Mary: He's been here for a long time I think.
Meredith: He has. Does that mean, he can vote?
Mary: Yeah, I think so. I mean, why else would you be a citizen?
Meredith: There you go.
Mary: I wouldn't mind if Neil Young could vote. (Laughs)
Meredith: I know. He's had a lot of... he's had a lot of thoughts about politics. He's got a lot to say. Let him say it! Let him speak his piece with his vote. Let him do it. Just let him do it.
Mary: Neil for President, honestly.
Meredith: So I feel like I sounded insincere when I said it was a hell of a listen, but it was!
Mary: It was, we're just awkward. You'll- you guys will learn that after a while. (Laughs)
Meredith: I'm not awkward.
Mary: I mean, I am. You don't have to be. I definitely am. (Laughs)
Meredith: Oh, I think that my behavior speaks for itself.
(Both laugh).
Mary: So we were wondering about- what was the lyric you were wondering about?
Meredith: I... was wondering about, "sometimes I'm just whole," is how I heard it.
Mary: "Sometimes..."(reads lyrics) "...I'm just a hole for you to get in." "Sometimes I'm just a hole for you to get in."
Meredith: Oh! Yeah, you see, I think that that is a good lyric. I don't know if this happens to you, but something that has happens to me is I'll mis-hear a lyric and then I'll attach all these meanings to it the way that I mis-hear it?
Mary: Yep.
Meredith: And then I kind of fall in love with that interpretation-
Mary: Yep.
Meredith: -that I have come up with in my own little mind, that when I hear the actual lyric it registers a little bit of a letdown, honestly? I mean not that that's in any way a bad lyric. And I know that Jeff Tweedy is probably fine with that, because I heard him on WTF saying that sometimes he will mumble something that sounds like a word and never actually write lyrics to parts of his songs.
Mary: I feel like he's become a little more methodical about his lyrics.
Meredith: He has. Whether he is ready to admit to it now or not. It seems like he's been- like Warm kind of marked a turning point.
Mary: Yeah, a little more personal.
Meredith: Can I tell you why I like, "sometimes I'm just whole?"
Mary: Yes, I would love to hear that.
Meredith: Because I feel like it's hard to have conversations with people that are at all contentious. And it seems like in this track, he's describing an argument or their tendencies when they're arguing, he and his partner. And I feel like hmm, maybe sometimes I'm just whole when I'm talking to people. I'm coming at something with all of my perspectives and all of my baggage and- and everything that I can bring to an argument with my whole self and that can be uncomfortable for people.
Mary: And the really interesting kind of accidental wordplay that's happened with you mis-hearing those lyrics is the difference between whole, W-H-O-L-E and H-O-L-E because they're opposites. They're opposite words: "whole" as in, like, complete and "hole" as in emptiness.
Meredith: And yet they're homophones.
Mary: Yes! Which is incredibly confusing in a song because you-
Meredith: And fun!
Mary: And fun, because you sometimes don't know what- but I think it's because it's, "a hole," I'm "A-hole!" Haha! Okay, sorry. I mean, and also I'm looking at internet Google lyrics that may or may not be accurate? I have the vinyl that has the actual liner notes that I probably should be looking at. I feel like usually these are, like, fairly accurate. They usually get them from the liner notes-
Meredith: Usually. Yeah.
Mary: I'm thinking we're okay, but-
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: It is a very interesting discussion either way.
Meredith: I think it's a great discussion personally.
Mary: Yeah, unraveling the mystery. I really love the imagery in this song. Especially, like, the last verse, which is the, "somehow we're bright leaves/ you and I beneath the old snow/ being set free by the winter rain/ and I know it'll never change." It's really interesting, because we are both Californians and have had pretty minimal experience with real, like, snowy winter. Like I don't know about you-
Meredith: I've had some.
Mary: You've had some? I have had some. I did live in Chicago for a year.
Meredith: Mm hmm. My grandparents, they lived in Concord, New Hampshire for most of my childhood, and we would spend Christmases back there and they get some snow.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And then I lived in Tennessee-
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: -as a child for about five years and yeah, pretty much every winter, you'd get some. There was never a year when we didn't get any. Maybe that's coming to Tennessee at some point-
Mary: -Global warming? Climate change?
Meredith: When I lived there, you could at least expect some snow every winter.
Mary: Yeah. So I was thinking of this because I just went to New York State for Christmas. And one of the things that I thought was really beautiful is that after the snow melts, if it refreezes it becomes ice. And if you're walking, like, in a forested area, you'll be walking on ice sometimes, and there are fall leaves frozen under the ice, and they're like, kind of preserved in this like, icy prison. And it's really beautiful. Because this album was released, I believe, in November.
Meredith: October? October.
Mary: October. It was in the fall, I had been listening to the song, and then I like went to New York and I saw these amazing fall colors under the ice under all this snow. And it was this poignant moment where I thought about this song and I was like, "Oh, I really get this imagery." It's kind of an almost depressing concept, because it's like this snow and ice is like preserving these leaves but as soon as it melts, they're gonna just dry up and be dead and not colorful anymore. And so it really kind of like made the song stick with me a little bit more. That last verse started to really pop out at me.
Meredith: Yeah. It's a pretty obvious take, but - of mine - it's fun how the title of the track is "Bright Leaves," and then he says "never change" so much in the song.
Mary: Yeah. Oh, yeah, the whole like last minute and a half or so. You're never gonna change. And I appreciate the like, kind of "hole" metal- metaphor that he's built around the song and the irony and the... just the the kind of like argument. The cycle is gonna keep happening, basically the cycle of the seasons and like what happens every year.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: It's pretty sad when you think about it. The way the song builds is really interesting kind of also to do with that.
Meredith: Do we want to get into the instrumentation?
Mary: One of the reasons why this is one of my favorite openings to a Wilco album is because of the instrumentation. The drum sounds are just like so punchy, and stunning. And percussive. Even though it's not this big, like, production number, it's very ambient. And the first guitar chord is a really weird chord. I don't know what it is, but it doesn't really go with the melody at all. But it somehow does.
Meredith: I love the way that Wilco uses dissonance just in general.
Mary: Yeah. But they don't overuse it.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: It's used at very impactful moments. And that's like, one of the things that really brings this song home for me is really subtle use of all those things. And you know, there's a lot of tinkering sounds in the background, a lot of piano, but it's not like "Via Chicago" live. During the verses, they will sometimes do like crazy... the drums will be totally doing their own thing, but then they come back together, like really perfectly. It's really interesting. It makes me want to listen to the song a million times, because I feel like I'll find something new every single time.
Meredith: Yeah, and you really could. There's a lot. There's a lot of woven in there.
Mary: Yeah, like even just our last listen, I had never heard that really dissonant chord at the very beginning. It's either like a guitar with a, like a phaser kind of effect, or it's a keyboard. I don't know what it is.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: But it's like right before the lyrics come in, I had never known that that chord was so strident? What is that chord! It just made me so excited to just discover something new in the song.
Meredith: Yeah, you could definitely find something new with each listen. And I know what you mean about the drums. It's like you can't help but feel them at a physical level when you listen to it, which I feel like is something that people often say about drums, but the presence of them the fact that they're so at the forefront of the mix-
Mary: -and they're very heavy, more behind the beat than you would, like, kind of expect, which creates some kind of like anxiety or anticipation? But in a good way?
Meredith: That's a really good point. Because that's something that I did pick up on, but wasn't even aware enough of to articulate, but you just articulated it perfectly. Like as soon as we started up the track, I was like, "huh, are the drums a little bit off?" And they are. A little bit. But for an effect. For a purpose.
Mary: It kind of has this little lead up to the punch. Every hit. I love it. Yeah, it makes a song in my opinion. Yeah, like I love everything that's going on, really. But... And it's not this big, flashy drum part. I mean, I can't even imagine, having been in a studio where drummers are recording a lot of times, that is so hard to do, to have a really laggy drum part that somehow everyone can follow along with and like, have it really impactful like that. It totally hit- hit me (laughs). I found that when I first heard that, so-
Meredith: We also noticed as we were listening- (laughs) I feel like we have a secret that we listened to it and none of you were a part of it!
Mary: You can listen on your own.
Meredith: Right!
Mary: Recommended for listening to this podcast: listen to what we're gonna talk about. Listen to "Bright Leaves." You know, hopefully we can have - um - some discussions with listeners. And friends.
Meredith: And hopefully our friends are also our listeners.
Mary: Yeah, friends.
Meredith: Support us.
Mary: Support your friends.
Meredith: (Sings, in the style of a jingle) "Support your friends!" That's public service announcement. But! At about the four minute mark, that's when the keys come in.
Mary: Yeah, you're talking about the piano? Or the-
Meredith: I'm talking about the piano.
Mary: -the chords or the more like tinkering-
Meredith: -tinkery stuff. I could be off on the time. But I think that that's about when they come in, and the harmonies as well at about, like, 4:10 they're just, you know, a little touch. It's not really hitting anybody over the head. But it's perfect right there. And I feel like this whole song can really be kind of a lesson in dynamics handled really well.
Mary: Yep.
Meredith: Because they'll kind of introduce a lot and then back off on some things and kind of filter 'em back in a little bit and then build it again.
Mary: I agree. That, like, piano part that you're talking about, in particular, really reminds me of one of my favorite filmed Wilco performances. It's from the Ashes of American Flags documentary. It's actually the first song and it's the song "Ashes of American Flags." And it's kind of towards the end of the song. There's a great piano part that's just so subtle, but it's just what it needs to be. And it's also Pat Sansone playing on that tour. And it's him on this, um, recording - I'm sure - playing piano, it's that really subtle- has a lot of kind of strident parts. And it's just that little bit of beauty that needs to be in there. Not that the song isn't beautiful, but if everything was like, we'll make it as weird as possible, it wouldn't work.
Meredith: Yeah. Well, it feels like kind of a resolution almost when it comes in. It feels like at that point, you've kind of processed the emotion of it, or it's kind of helping you along to process the emotion of it and just resolve it in a kind of a peaceful way, set you down gently.
Mary: And it sets up the next song really well, too. I've never been in a band that has a piano player. And I've always wanted to because of little things you can do like that with piano, like the piano doesn't need to be in the whole song, but it can come in at the perfect moment to like segue you into some other space.
Meredith: I will play piano in a band with you any day.
Mary: I didn't even know you play piano, Meredith!
Meredith: I can barely play piano, but I could fake it enough to add some little touches like that.
Mary: Well, that's great. Okay. Well, you might be hearing a new band, a new Meredith and Mary band. We could just call it "Mer."
Meredith: We could!
Mary: That's all we would need it to be is "mer." (Laughs)
Meredith: M-A-R-E like the horse?
Mary: Yes. I feel like- okay, that was probably a nickname that you had. I mean, like, that's your Instagram-
Meredith: I'd be cool with just Mare, M-A-R-E. I bet there's a band called that. In fact! There's a way to find out!
Mary: Google! The Google.
Meredith: Or my streaming site, which I use, Tidal. Hey! Guess what? No artists come up named Mare! (Laughs).
Mary: I found one M-A-R-E on Google.
Meredith: Aw dang it.
Mary: They were! No, they don't exist anymore.
Meredith: Aha!
Mary: They were a Canadian band from Toronto who fused sludge metal with more experimental traits such as jazz, unusual time signatures, and Gregorian chant.
Meredith: Well, damn it, that's exactly what we are going to do.
Mary: Oh my gosh, that's incredible!
Meredith: Oh man.
Mary: We can't live up to that.
Meredith: Mhm. They ripped us off before we even got going.
Mary: (Laughs).
Meredith: I would love it. Even if we just sent tracks back and forth or something.
Mary: We could call it, like, Mare Deux. Like deux? Like two in French? Mare Deux.
Meredith: And then that kind of sounds like "merde" with the really emphasized E. (Laughs)
Mary: Oh, no.
Meredith: The real Provençal final E. Oh my gosh. Got all in the weeds with French just now.
Mary: That's just gonna happen on this podcast.
Meredith: I didn't know you also spoke French.
Mary: I took some French in high school. I actually oddly retained it better than the college German I took.
Meredith: I took Spanish and French in high school. I like languages.
Mary: Me too! I would like to restart, especially German. It's a fun language, but it's like English in that it has really weird rules. And it's just really difficult to learn. But it can be done.
Meredith: I'm always wanting to get better at my Spanish just because there's an immediate use for it.
Mary: Very practical.
Meredith: There are times in my life when I have been pretty conversational at it and I can get along okay, but now is not one of those times.
Mary: It'll come back.
Meredith: Yeah, we'll see. Thank you for believing in me.
Mary: Oh, yes.
Meredith: (Laughs).
Mary: Of course.
Meredith: I liked the look on your face that was just like, "Why would you even think I wouldn't!"
Mary: Haha! That's what it was.
Meredith: It made me feel good.
Mary: Good.
Meredith: Oh, well good.
Mary: Oh good. I guess we're pretty good on talking about "Bright Leaves."
Meredith: I think we are.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: I think we nailed it. (Laughs).
Mary: I know! That was a great first, uh, you know. To break in the- the song discussions.
Meredith: Consider it broken.
Mary: Broken!
Meredith: We broke it. (Laughs).
Mary: We broke that song. Onto the next one.
Meredith: Like a mare! (Laughs).
Mary: Oh, no. All the horse puns.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: (Laughs).
Meredith: Yeah, that'll happen.
Mary: Good. Good.
Meredith: That'll happen.
Mary: It'll happen you guys. Hopefully you can take it.
Meredith: Yeah, you know what? They can't hang.
Mary: We're doing this for us.
Meredith: (Laughs).
Mary: I mean, it'd be great if other fans happened to enjoy our discussions. (Laughs).
Meredith: We can't be the only ones in the world who enjoy a good horse pun at the end of a long day.
Mary: (Laughs) it has been a long day.
Meredith: It has, hasn't it.
Mary: Alright, so until "Before Us," is up.
Meredith: "Before Us?" "Before Us." That's your homework. Listen to "Before Us-"
Mary: Yeah, that's your homework.
Meredith: Until we meet again.
Mary: That is the next song right?
Meredith: Yeah! I'm looking at it.
Mary: Okay, good.
Meredith: (Laughs) wait, did you pull out your phone to check and see if it was?
Mary: Yeah, I did.
Meredith: I have it right here!
Mary: Oh, good. I should trust you more.
Meredith: (Laughs) it's right here in front of my face. I've got you!
Mary: Alright. So "Before Us." Listen to "Before Us," you guys.
Meredith: Mhm. Call to Action.
Mary: Call to Action. Listen to it, think about questions... it'd be kind of cool if listeners thought of questions that they could like email to us and we could talk about them on later podcasts, so-
Meredith: That would be cool.
Mary: Should we just give them our email?
Meredith: You know what? I was just gonna say I think we'll get zero, but I'm going to be an optimist today.
Mary: Yeah, why not!
Meredith: We're gonna get a lot and all very kind.
Mary: Very kind emails.
Meredith: Kind and respectful and super stoked that we're women doing this podcast. (Laughs).
Mary: Yeah! Talking about a kind of historically considered "dad band" that I think is really misused for Wilco.
Meredith: It is.
Mary: Because I think they're very innovative and-
Meredith: -yeah-
Mary: -interesting, and-
Meredith: -hey! And dads are innovative and interesting too.
Mary: Yeah!
Meredith: So are moms.
Mary: Yeah. And they support a lot of different types of bands like female- especially this past season, when they're touring a lot of female led bands, which was very exciting.
Meredith: Mm hmm.
Mary: I really appreciated that. So if you want to email us, our email is the same as our Instagram handle, but @gmail.com. So it's wwlypodcast@gmail.com. And, you know, email us questions, comments about what we just talked about. Maybe ideas for future episodes, ideas of cool, like, things we can talk about, because we're hoping this will just go on as long as we can both do it.
Meredith: Mm hmm. I mean, we have a lot of ideas ourselves.
Mary: So many ideas.
Meredith: Infinite. But if you want to throw out a few, too, then I mean, we won't stop you.
Mary: Yeah. And like any kind of conversation, like, this is not the be-all-end-all. podcast on "Bright Leaves." Like we can definitely talk about the song again in the future.
Meredith: But you know what? That said... maybe it is.
Mary: Maybe it is! Maybe we did a perfect job.
Meredith: (Laughs) don't apologize to the people, Mary.
Mary: Tie it back into the greater Wilcosphere, because many minds- what is it- great- many- many hands make light work? I think is what I was trying to think of? There are so many listeners out there that will think of totally different things than we think of.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: I happen to think that we can think of really good things-
Meredith: Right.
Mary: -and we can have intelligent discussions-
Meredith: We can.
Mary: -but you know what? Always be open to new ideas.
Meredith: I for one think that everybody thinks exactly like us, just only two people.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: I think everyone has exactly the same thoughts as you and I-
Mary: Yep. Same opinions.
Meredith: -as you and me, but, uh, prove me wrong.
Mary: Yeah, that's a (laughs) good call to action: Prove us wrong.
Meredith: Yeah. Share your thoughts.
Mary: Share your thoughts, wwlypodcast@gmail.com. Or you can message us on our Instagram @wwlypodcast. We'll hopefully be posting more.
Meredith: We will be posting more. No need to hope. That's just gonna happen.
Mary: It's gonna happen.
Meredith: It's gonna flow.
Mary: It'll happen. Stay tuned for "Before Us:" A Discussion.
Meredith: And remember-
Mary: Subscribe!
Meredith: You can subscribe on, uh, wherever you listen to podcasts, I believe.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: We'll get on there. If we're not on there then like, you know, let us know? And we'll fix it.
Mary: Help us reach a wider variety of podcasts.
Meredith: Tell your friends.
Mary: Tell your friends
Meredith: Tell your bank teller.
Mary: You show that bank teller who can tell!
Meredith: That'll be a fun conversation. (Acts out the conversation) "Hey, I'm here to make a deposit. A $50 check. Thanks. Hey, you listen to Wilco?" (As the bank teller) "What? Get away from me."
Mary: Yeah. (Laughs). Just trying to make friends. Great. Well, for the maybe final time. Until next time, remember that Wilco Will Love You. And we will love you if you subscribe to our podcast. (Laughs) maybe? I mean, that's not a promise.
Meredith: We'll love that you subscribed.
Mary: That's a better way of saying what I was trying to say. (Laughs) but hey, love is everywhere.
Meredith: Mhmm. Beware.
Mary: Bye.
Meredith: Bye.
Outro: (Over theme music) Wilco Will Love You is co-hosted by Mary MacLane and me, Meredith Coons. It is edited by Greta Stromquist and recorded at Portola Studios. Theme music by Adam Nash. You can rate and review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe at Apple Podcasts, or wherever you prefer to listen, so that you don't miss an episode.