Mary and Meredith continue their discussion of Wilco's "Ode to Joy" with track 10, "Hold Me Anyway." It was excellent and possibly their favorite on the album. Is this justified?
(Theme music fades in: guitar strumming, slide guitar glides in. Music fades out as the co-hosts Mary MacLane Mellas and Meredith Hobbs Coons begin to speak.)
Meredith: Hey, Mary.
Mary: Hey, Meredith.
Meredith: Ooh-wee, I'm excited to talk about today!
Mary: (Laughs) woo!
Meredith: I'm so excited that I'm saying that before we even announce... that this is-!
Mary: -Wilco Will Love You!
Meredith: A podcast by fans about the music and influence-
Mary: -of Wilco.
Meredith: What song are we talking about, Mary?
Mary: "Hold Me Anyway." I really love this song.
Meredith: Oh my gosh. I didn't realize how much I loved this song until we did our little first pass through it just now.
Mary: It's one of those ones that, I feel like, has slipped under the radar for a lot of people. Because after "Love is Everywhere," which is so classic. I feel like a lot of people are just like, "okay, the rest of the album... it's whatever." But oh my gosh. This song's just really sweet. It just makes me happy.
Meredith: All of the audible reactions from both of us as we just listened to this song... there was foot tapping... there was, like-
Mary: -"yes!"-
Meredith: -yeah, there were "yesses," there were "aghs," like the- "that's just so good-"
Mary: -so good!-
Meredith: -kind of gut reactions...
Mary: Yeah. The gut. Like, "agh!" It just hits you in the gut.
Meredith: Yeah. (Laughs) we were real excited listening to this.
Mary: While we're all excited, why don't we give it one more listen? And talk about it!
Meredith: Our second listen, maybe your first, and you know what? That's okay.
Mary: That is okay. Because we'll talk about it.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: Here it is.
(Music fades in. There's a joyfulness about the acoustic guitar sound, almost like a ukelele. The percussion matches that joyfulness and Jeff Tweedy sings, with a breathy ease "Overflowing like a crowd/ I'm freaking the fuck out/ I'll try to do my best/ I guess/ High in an old dead tree/ That plastic bag is me/ That's where I wanna be." Music fades out.)
Mary: All right.
Meredith: Ah, yes.
Mary: Where should we even start?
Meredith: Agh.
Mary: Oh, one thing I noticed you were talking about for the first few songs. A lot of them had these little like ambient studio sounds at the beginning that sounded like someone picking up a guitar or something. This one had that too. And it's the first one in a while.
Meredith: Yeah, it is. You're right, because the last one just kicked off right away.
Mary: I love those little things they're throwing in there, not, like, starting songs right at the beginning.
Meredith: I was noticing there were back-to-back songs that begin with an acoustic
Mary: A lot of these songs transition into each other very well. With a few exceptions of standalone songs, most of these have had, like, not literal transitions, but something that ties them together, which I really appreciate. It makes it feel like an album.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: And so few people listen to albums today, all the way through.
Meredith: It's true.
Mary: I know I'm guilty of that sometimes, but I usually tend to listen... in albums. Especially an album like this. I appreciate when bands create a work that is all meant to fit together, not just individual tracks, like singles.
Meredith: Right? Want to talk about the instruments first? I feel like we're going to get into the lyrics a lot here.
Mary: Yeah. I love the drum sounds
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: So, this is a term that- I don't think it was coined by our mutual friend Adam Nash, he just always makes me think of this word "guitarmony-"
Meredith: -uh huh-
Mary: -which is a great word. It's hilarious if you know guitar players, and just great in general, but the guitarmony on the song is so good!
Meredith: It is.
Mary: It's so good. It's a very Wilco sound. I think we talked about the last song being very "Wilco."
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: This is also very "Wilco."
Meredith: It is. It feels like "Summerteeth!"
Mary: It does, because we're talking about acoustic, kind of sparse intro-
Mary: -and then they just punch you with this great guitar part that is just perfect. We were talking about "We Were Lucky" kind of disparagingly, because it has some guitar interludes. And I just think this song does it so much better than that song (laughs), and just like in a really satisfying way, that might be one reason why I disparage against that song so much. Not that I hate it, but I just love this song! You think it's great, and then they layer another harmony on top of it, like, the second time.
Meredith: -uh huh-
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: I love the instrumentation of this song. I think it's perfect. It's just subtle enough... to where that guitar part really pops.
Meredith: I noticed the bass and kick coordinating in this song.
Mary: Pretty syncopated, but really good. Um.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: Since we talked about guitarmony, we should talk about harmony.
Meredith: Yes.
Mary: Because the harmonies are also really good on this song.
Meredith: Oh they're so good!
Mary: And they just come in... right where they need to be, which I really appreciate. They're not, like, through the whole song, but there's kind of a doubling that Jeff has done on his own voice.
Meredith: They're only on the "Are we all in love just because" part, right? Or am I getting that wrong? They back off-
Mary: -uh huh-
Mary: That part of the song just, like, swells.
Meredith: -after that.
Meredith: Right. It's almost like that part is sort of- something that, again, you hear in the Beatles (laughs).
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: "With a Little Help from My Friends?" They kind of do a call and response with it with the- (singing) "would you believe in a love at first sight." And they do that together, and then Ringo kind of answers. Call and response is old as time. It's not like the Beatles invented call and response. But-
Mary: -brought it into rock music. Probably.
Meredith: Maybe.
Mary: I don't know.
Meredith: I don't know either. But I-
Mary: We're not historians
Meredith: That example springs to mind. But I guess that this reminds me of that in particular, probably, because he's negating what's presented by sort of the chorus of voices, the chorus of voices are asking the question, "Are we all in love just because?" And then he's shooting it down immediately in, like, classic, Tweedy, top-of-his-range, kind of style, which I- I love that quality that he gets in his voice when he's, kinda, really going for it.
Mary: This song is just really sweet.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: And I don't necessarily look for, like, great uplifting messages when I listen to Wilco?
Meredith: Right.
Mary: I've actually kind of appreciated this album, how...
Meredith: Yeah, they're here.
Mary: It makes me think the album title "Ode to Joy" is really appropriate.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: Because it's talking about some really tough things that don't bring joy, like death and, like, fear of death. But then it's also talking about love being, like, actually kind of a magical thing. And it's not cheesy or terrible to acknowledge that.
Meredith: It's like a defense of love and joy.
Mary: This whole album is kind of telling that story. But yeah, kind of like a belief in good things.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: That I just really appreciate
Meredith: Right. And I think with the (reads lyrics) "No! I think it's poetry and magic" thing, too, I think about how... people can get cynical and, kind of, say that there's really nothing to believe in and... it's all just kind of our own myth-making in our own minds, that human beings are really great at making meaning, it's something that we have to do. And they'll kind of just describe it away in that sense and say, like, "Oh, yeah, well, people just create meaning automatically, and it's not really there. We just kind of do it." I sort of don't care. I feel like this song is where I am with that where it's like, yeah, maybe, but I love the meanings (laughs) that I create. And I don't care if they're even... just in my own... mind. They're useful to me.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And I love that my brain does that, and I marvel at it, and... it makes my life enjoyable and bearable to have these things that I believe in.
Mary: Yeah, there are people who kind of, like, look for... I think, like, reasons to be... cynical in music a lot of times, and I feel like Wilco has been there.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: But they're not there right now. They make music kind of pretty much when they want they have lives.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: They've been through some tough stuff, but they're doing better. Why not be positive? We need it right now.
Meredith: Right. I want to get back into the lyrics, but really quick, that fade out... Come on!
Mary: Agh, so good.
Meredith: I love that fade out.
Mary: It's perfect!
Meredith: Just everything about this song satisfies me.
Mary: And you know what's funny is kind of before we listened to this song, we kind of forgot what it sounded like?
Meredith: I know.
Mary: We were like "Hold Me Anyway...?"
Meredith: I'm ashamed (laughs).
Mary: I am, too, but I think we were saying "Love is Everywhere" is, like, so punchy and it so stays with you, kind of everything after that kind of gets lost.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: Unless you listen to the whole album.
Meredith: I'm gonna appreciate this song more going forward.
Mary: I absolutely am, too.
Meredith: I'm on a "Hold Me Anyway" campaign now.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: (Laughs).
Mary: Is the title anywhere in the lyrics?
Meredith: It's... not?
Mary: I don't think it is.
Meredith: And you know what-
Mary: That might be one reason why I don't remember the song-
Meredith: -maybe!-
Mary: -when I see the title-
Meredith: -maybe-
Mary: -because I don't think it's... featured in the song.
Meredith: Right. And as we were kind of saying, with some of the other songs, it doesn't really... need to be in. It can be fun to look at the title is sort of like a comment on the rest of the lyrics. And in this case, it's like he's kind of laying out some of these aspects of himself that are a little much-
Mary: -yeah-
Meredith: -or, like, a little bit extra or weird. And then, back to the title, "Hold Me Anyway."
Mary: Re-reading the kind of, like, chorus (reads lyrics) "No! I think is poetry magic/ Something too big to have a name/ And when you get it right it's still tragic."
Meredith: Mm hmm.
Meredith and Mary: "When you die who's to blame?"
Mary: "Did you think everything/ Would be okay?" So there is like a twist to it.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: Like this is fleeting...
Meredith: But it's almost a little bit comical, because it's like "yeah, who are you going to blame-
Mary: -yeah!-
Meredith: -if one of you dies?" Like, if you break up, then it's one thing, and-
Mary: -yeah-
Meredith: -you can say "this person did that." But if someone dies, who you gonna blame? That was just its nature.
Mary: Yeah, and it's like "Hold Me Anyway-"
Meredith: -yeah-
Mary: -just because this is gonna end someday-
Meredith: -yeah, that, too-
Mary: -doesn't mean you don't just... enjoy life.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: You know, love people.
Meredith: Still gotta do it.
Mary: You just got to live like... you're not gonna die tomorrow. Are you gonna live like you're gonna die tomorrow? But like, in the best way.
Meredith: Yeah. And then... I just love- they're like... four little mini verses. And then three courses.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And the first two courses have that little pre-chorus (reads lyrics) "Are we all in love just because," and the last one doesn't.
Mary: Ah!
Meredith: And the choruses are broken up by those beautiful instrumentals.
Mary: Guitarmony!
Meredith: And I have no problem with there being two.
Mary: No. I want more of it. I want another one!
Meredith: I want to live there.
Mary: I want another one of those instrumentals.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: This is a song that I actually would love to be longer. I could totally take another verse and chorus and guitarmony.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: I could do it. But at the same time, it's just perfect the way it is. And if it had more, then maybe I would start to get tired of it.
Meredith: Yeah. You never know. You really never know.
Mary: You never know.
Meredith: Gosh, I like the way that this kind of upsets the expected structure. I'm not always a fan of structure. Sometimes I like things deconstructed and rearranged. And actually, I find that in general Jeff Tweedy, does that really well. Even... just singing a line a little bit later than you would expect each time?
Mary: Yeah. It's in a way that serves the song.
Meredith: Yeah. Yeah, he does things really tastefully that... kind of upset the... typical balance. It's very fun for me.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And others, I would assume. One more little thing that I was, um, wondering about the... instruments- just to get completely disjointed, because I want to get back to the lyrics, too- do you hear harmonium in that? Or do you think it's just a synth masquerading as a harmonium- in harmonium drag?
Mary: It definitely could be a harmonium
Meredith: Harmoniums are cool.
Mary: Yeah, there's a lot going on here instrumentally.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: Some really beautiful... piano lines if I remember correctly, and-
Meredith: -mhmm-
Mary: -like harmony baselines that I love! I think I just kind of don't remember a lot of the instrumentation because of how great the guitars are (laughs).
Meredith: (Laughs) it distracts you.
Mary: I like that the drums and bass have a very kind of walking feel, very punchy.
Meredith: Uh huh.
Mary: Just what they need to be.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: Just some really beautiful- like, that kind of one part where the bass has a harmony-
Meredith: -mhmm-
Mary: -with the vocal... is really great.
Meredith: It's a cool touch.
Mary: There is like really interesting imagery.
Mary: (Reads lyrics) "High in an old dead tree/ That plastic bag is me." And then he compares himself to, like, a hologram - just light. It's almost a riddle.
Meredith: Mhmm!
Meredith: It seems like it's about self acceptance. Each one. (Reads lyrics) "So/ You might not give a damn/ I'm like a hologram/ Light is all I am." So it's saying... you know, it doesn't matter if you care or not, I am light. I'm just here to radiate.
Mary: Yeah, like "I'm a plastic bag, which is light and up high in a tree," and like-
Meredith: (Reads lyrics) "It's where want to be" it's, like, accepting the present moment. There's a lot of mindfulness here.
Mary: Yeah! Time, a lot of time.
Meredith: Yeah, (reads lyrics) "Time is nothing I can keep/ It's the same as when I sleep/ If time is just to kill/ Then I will." Like, "whatever, I'm going to spend my time... however I want, even if I'm just killing time by someone else's definition. Doesn't matter. Because that's how I'm happy."
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And then... (reads lyrics) "Overflowing like a crowd/ And I'm freaking the fuck out/ I'll try to do my best/ I guess." So- Yeah, I mean, even like, when he's freaking out, he's just... accepting that that's where he is in that moment.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And saying I'll just do my best. A lot of self acceptance. That's kind of where I'm trying to... remain (laughs) in my-
Mary: -yeah-
Meredith: -in my life and in my writing right now. And that's kind of where I'm trying to build a home- maybe why this is resonating so much with me right now.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: Because I'm like, "man, same page."
Mary: Aren't we all though?
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: Are we all in love?
Meredith: I think we all are. But I think that it also takes a certain self awareness to recognize, to like, think consciously of those things, because it takes practice. And... there are definitely a lot of more negative... thoughts, like, kind of, the little tape in my head that plays through the script that-
Mary: -yeah-
Meredith: -I've been feeding myself for a very long time. And it has taken work to kind of recognize that it is a script I've been feeding myself for a very long time, and that there's nothing... inherently true about it. If anything, it's just an absolute fiction.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: That seems like that's right where this song is. And I like that.
Mary: Yeah. Me too. "Hold Me Anyway."
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: That was really fun.
Meredith: SO fun.
Mary: You can subscribe to Wilco Will Love You on your favorite podcasting app or website or whatever you prefer. You can follow us, @wwlypodcast on Instagram and wwlypodcast@gmail.com, if you need to express some thoughts, respectfully, to us. And if you have questions, even if it's just to say hey, I love this song, too. I'm glad you guys talked about it. That's fine, too.
Meredith: Share your little nuggets of additional-
Mary: -yeah!-
Meredith: -observations and facts. That's really what we want to get here.
Mary: Yeah, because we don't know everything.
Meredith: We're curious. We're intellectually curious people.
Mary: Also, share with people! Share with your friends. Like, we want to get this conversation to a bigger audience.
Meredith: Just for the fun of it, really.
Mary: We just want to have fun. That's all this is.
Meredith: We just want to share...
Mary: Yeah, we want to talk about something... that we have a mutual... interest in talking about.
Meredith: Honestly, it's a joy to me to just... sit in a room with you and... nerd out about these songs, and pick apart everything that's enjoyable about them.
Mary: Same.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: I'm getting so much more out of it than I would if I was just listening.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: It leads to a lot of misread- (laughs) misheard lyrics and all kinds of stuff.
Meredith: (Laughs) right. Yeah. Ooh. I could talk about music (high pitched and with emphasis) all day.
Mary: All day. So what is our next-
Meredith: -next is-
Mary: -our last episode of the season!-
Meredith: -"An Empty Corner."
Mary: So we will discuss "An Empty Corner in the final... discussion of "Ode to Joy" which is the theme of our first season of Wilco Will Love You.
Meredith: We are going track by track, because you know what, it's easy (laughs).
Mary: Yeah. So "An Empty Corner," which is an intriguing title for a last song on an album.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: So... until next time, don't forget-
Meredith: -never forget-
Mary: -never forget-
Meredith: -Wilco Will Love You-
Mary: -that Wilco Will Love You.
Meredith: They'll do it
Mary: And that we will, too.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: Subscribe, share, follow-
Meredith: -mhmm-
Mary: -email. All the things.
Meredith: Do those things.
Mary: Do those things.
Meredith: Uh huh.
Mary: All right. Bye!
Meredith: Byeee.
(Outro: Wilco Will Love You is co-hosted by Mary MacLane and me, Meredith Coons. It is edited by Greta Stromquist and recorded at Portola Studios. Theme music by Adam Nash. You can rate and review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe at Apple Podcasts, or wherever you prefer to listen, so that you don't miss an episode.)