Mary and Meredith discuss "One and a Half Stars" from the Wilco album Ode To Joy as well as natural soundscapes, internet culture, and addiction. Fewer tangents; same old charm.
(Theme music fades in: guitar strumming, slide guitar glides in. Music fades out as the co-hosts Mary MacLane Mellas and Meredith Hobbs Coons begin to speak.)
Meredith: Oh hey, Mary.
Mary: Oh hey, Meredith. We're back here for Wilco Will Love You.
Meredith: Episode Three. Wilco Will Love You: a podcast by fans about the music and influence of...
Meredith and Mary: Wilco.
Mary: (Laughs) how many different ways can you say Wilco? It's kind of really fun word to say.
Meredith: I went, (raises pitch) high and you went (lowers pitch) low. So what are we here to talk about... today?
Mary: "One and a Half Stars," which is the rating that we hope we don't get.
Meredith: Mm. Or you know what? Give it to us, and-
Mary: -and then it'll be just some cool Wilco reference. And every time someone's like, "your podcast has really low rating," we'll be like, "we did it on purpose."
Meredith: That's right. Maybe I can- (laughs) maybe I'll go in and vote us down.
Mary: We'll let the public decide.
Meredith: Oh, we're playing with fire!
Mary: We'll just- yeah, we'll just pretend not to know why.
Meredith: Oh, my gosh.
Mary: So we're talking about "One and a Half Stars."
Meredith: I do feel like that is... maybe the theme of this song though.
Mary: Getting bad reviews?
Meredith: Yes. So what do you say? Should we listen? And then discuss?
Mary: Let's listen, then discuss.
Meredith: Okay.
Mary: We need to listen. Alright.
Meredith: Okay then.
Mary: Here it is.
Meredith: Fine.
Mary: One-
Meredith: (Laughs).
Mary: Here it is! "One and a Half Stars."
(Music fades in: Driving percussion. Jeff Tweedy sings "So if I stay/ In bed/ All day/ I can't/ Escape/ My Domain/ Two stories high in bed all day/ I can't escape my domain." Harmonies come in. It's beautiful. It fades out.)
Mary: Alright. What do you think, Meredith?
Meredith: I think that was excellent.
Mary: And we're not just everything-Wilco-does-is-great people, even though we've said that about every song.
Meredith: Well, I happen to really like this album. Get me on a track by track of Sky Blue Sky, and I won't be as generous.
Mary: I particularly love this album, too. So-
Meredith: Not that I hate Sky Blue Sky, guys...
Mary: She doesn't hate it.
Meredith: I don't.
Mary: She just has some opinions.
Meredith: I do.
Mary: That's okay.
Meredith: There are some beautiful songs on that album. Really great. I just want you to know that I'm not one of the haters.
Mary: No, we're not haters. But we're able to have meaningful discussions about what works and what doesn't work. And-
Meredith: -that's right.
Mary: -a lot of this podcast is just trying to figure out what they're doing.
Meredith: Yeah, I'm having a lot of fun talking about these songs with you, because there... is so much to unpack, and so much that they might be doing.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: I mean, you really never know with how experimental they get. It could be some plugin- maybe- but it's also likely that it's some analog sound that they've just figured out. We were thinking they did in this particular song-
Mary: -mhmm, mhmm-
Meredith: -with sort of the buzzing from the bass.
Mary: Like, I've noticed the beginning of every song has some kind of like ambient noises, someone hitting a guitar, like, natural sounds that you would normally cut off of the beginning of a recording.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: But I love that it's consistent like it- it seems like it's happened on every song so far. It makes the album feel very organic to me.
Meredith: Yeah. It's definitely a theme.
Mary: Yeah. And it's like, for all of the experimental sounds and interesting sounds that we're hearing, it still feels very organic. And I was kind of curious what critics are saying about this album, so I just brought up a Pitchfork article, and one of the things that they were talking about is the sparseness of them and that they have room to breathe.
Meredith: Right. They do.
Mary: Because Wilco has a lot of big, full numbers that are like-
Meredith: -mhmm-
Mary: -a soundscape, but "Ode to Joy" has a lot of room to breathe. And a lot of room for the sound of strings and the sound of... someone rubbing their arm on a guitar and like... breathing and... hitting the mic. And so I really enjoy that about this album.
Meredith: Who was the reviewer? Just to give proper credit here.
Mary: Jason Woodbury-
Meredith: -alright-
Mary: -a contributor to Pitchfork. And it was just one of the first articles I saw. I was just really curious- kind of like- what other people are saying about these... albums?
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: And you know what it really reminds me of his Tweedy's last couple albums, because they're also very sparse in their instrumentation.
Meredith: I was actually thinking that the... bass... part on this song... kind of evokes "Summer Noon" to me.
Mary: Oh.
Meredith: It's sort of similar.
Meredith: Okay.
Meredith: And I love that song. So that's why it stands out to me, probably.
Mary: Yeah. I had written that down of like, the kind of ambient sounds as like evidence of- that living people are making this album-
Meredith: -yeah-
Mary: -and it's not perfect, and- because you can have, like, albums that have a lot of feedback and, like, crazy guitar sounds and stuff, but they're always put in there very, like, intentionally.
Meredith: Uh huh.
Mary: And I think that somehow what Wilco has done with these songs is they've made them very, like- they're not, like, building a song with these little moments in them. They're like happen- they're just happening.
Meredith: Yeah, they... it may be that it is intentional, but it feels more organic somehow.
Meredith: Exactly. And just that kind of not polished- these songs I don't think would work if they were... super polished in their production.
Meredith: Right. It almost seems like the album is like a response to overly produced... really...
Mary: -yeah-
Meredith: ...slick stuff that's out there.
Mary: With perfect vocals.
Meredith: Right. Nothing is cleaned up that much.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: That's the feeling you get from it. You get the sense that they're extraordinary musicians, but they're willing to kind of let... some of the rough edges show, kind of just rolling with them and leaning into them.
Mary: Yeah, and creating sounds that aren't necessarily the expected sounds.
Meredith: It took me (laughs) some time to figure out what that high end, little ticking sound was. I was really thinking that it was some percussion instrument, and then I realized that they're just kind of letting... the instrument letting the bass kind of just make... that sound. I mean, I think I'm right, that that's what that is. It really sounds like it.
Mary: And there's really something I've noticed through just, like, the last- this song, and the previous two songs- is man, I really love the drum sounds on this record.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: A lot of these songs have this very driving... drumbeat. And I know for a fact that the next one does, too. We were talking about how the um... on the first song, the drum beat almost feels behind the beat, and on "Quiet Amplifier," it's really weird. It's like (makes drum noise) the drum comes in like a beat after you expect it every time, and it never- it somehow drives, but it never feels right. In the best way.
Meredith: Yeah, yeah.
Mary: Glenn Kotche is like an incredible drummer. And like, he's often seen doing a lot of really complicated, intricate stuff. But this record, while being very, I'm sure, difficult to play, and, like, very complicated, it feels not complicated and like just where the drums need to be, without detracting from the song.
Meredith: He's not super... virtuosic about it. And actually (laughs) this is time to read directly from the Wilco book, because he pretty much lays it out right here. In print.
Mary : This is the words- the words of Glenn.
Meredith: So maybe just a sentence or two or something. But he says, "Here's a go at my drumming philosophy. I view my drum set not as a defined instrument, but rather a collection of selected sounds that vary according to the musical needs at hand."
Mary : That hits the nail right on the head. He totally lives that, like-
Meredith: -so right there. It's so evident in each of these tracks that we've discussed as we've gotten into his drum sound.
Mary: There's just really something about this record and the drums. And I'm not a drummer. I'm a bass player. So I usually am very attentive to, like, John's bass parts, because he's one of my favorite bass players ever. And I love the bass playing on this album, but... the drumming- and it's not like it sticks out like drumming... that doesn't fit a song sticks out.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: It's just like, in the best way possible, I'm like, "What is it that's making the song so great? Oh, it's it's the drums!"
Meredith: Right.
Mary: And that's not usually something I'd pay attention to be honest.
Meredith: He just doesn't use it in the way that you would expect. And he's willing to back way, way off and... do things that are a lot more subtle than I think most people would even... think to do.
Mary: Almost orchestral. Like you could almost call what he's doing on this album more like percussion than even being a drummer.
Meredith: Hey! Let's read the next line of this, shall we? Because he gets into that. He says, "I think that drums, percussion, can be used not only as a rhythm instrument, but also for color and texture as in an orchestra."
Mary: There it is.
Meredith: He got it.
Mary: Took the words right out of my mouth. That really just brings home a lot of the things I've been feeling about the drums on this record, so I appreciate you bringing that book. The Wilco Book.
Mary: (Laughs) yeah! It's The Wilco Book!
Mary: It's The Wilco Book!
Meredith: And that was Glenn- that was- his own words. It was me in Glenn Kotche's own words (laughs).
Mary: So there we go. Well, how are we feeling about this song?
Meredith: Great. Um. We didn't talk about the lyrics yet. And I really would like to.
Mary: Yeah, please do.
Meredith: It seems, definitely, to be sort of a response to the social media... likes-followers sort of culture that we belong to.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: Because right out the gate, the very first line is "I wish/ Too much/ For you/ To care." I, at least, interpret that line as sort of everyone's reaction once you really call your own social media use into question. You kind of realize, "Oh, why does this matter to me? I wish so much for you to care- too much for you to care!"
Mary: Kind of just like, "Goldfish/ I won/ At the fair," it's just like arbitrary... not that special things that happen in our lives that we expect people to really care about on social media and, like, expect to, like, be perceived a certain way, even though it's like, "okay, I won. Goldfish at the-" like, I don't think he's literally talking about, like, goldfish won at the fair, I think he's kind of more talking about, like, this random little thing that I did... but I still need, like, all this affirmation from... online... people that I don't even know- or that I do know, but I don't really have a relationship with them.
Meredith: Or you could think about the goldfish as, like, everyone's in their own little fishbowl, so to speak. And he is kind of introducing the goldfish to things in his environment. And... that's kind of how... that relationship goes. It's... you're not ever going to touch... or be that involved with the... goldfish you win at the fair, it feels like, "Oh, I got a- I got a follower!" You know? But what does that mean? It's not usually a tactile experience that you're going to have, or any kind of an intimate experience- in most cases.
Mary: The line, "There is/ No mother/ Like pain," is like whaaa- what?
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: I know, that line hits me. I don't know why.
Meredith: Yeah, it's a good one. I... jotted that one down, too. I was thinking, "I can't escape my domain," kind of has the dual meaning with the internet language.
Mary: Yeah, "domain" is such a weird word to use... if you're not talking about the internet.
Meredith: Well, then it's like "kingdom" or like "domain," like where you live, you know? Your domicile, your domain.
Mary: "So/ I stay/ In bed/ All day/ I can't escape/ My domain." So just, like, staying in bed all day, like, you don't need social interaction... in real life.
Meredith: But then on the internet, your domain is like, (laughs) your website. And then, "I'm worried/ About the way/ We're all living," is in there.
Mary: Oh, yeah, it's definitely talking about- this album is... really interesting, because I don't know... if Wilco has done a lot of, like, contemporary social criticism in the past. But there's a lot of very specific references and these songs that are, like, subtle enough to where, until I actually looked at these lyrics, I probably kind of glossed over, but now that I'm seeing like, yeah-
Meredith: -you know, you we're gonna get to it, though.
Mary: I was gonna get to it.
Meredith: You were always going to get to it, because you're a true fan. And you let it... kind of filter in more and more the more you listen to it. You don't- I don't think anyone expects people to grasp every nuance and... study every word... even the first few passes at a song. I think that... it's okay to discover new things in it as you go along.
Mary: Another thing I just thought about was having read Jeff's autobiography. And his, you know, past struggles with addiction are really interesting, because internet addiction is definitely a real thing.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: And, "I'm left with only my desire to change," and, like, his decision to basically get clean. I feel like there was also a part where, like, the... staying in bed all day, like, he was bedridden-
Mary: -mhmm-
Mary: -for a while because of his addiction and was getting really sick, and, "Two stories high in bed all day/ I can't escape my domain? I won't escape my domain," which is a lot of, kind of like, what he was going through at that time. So I think this could be a dual- also about... addiction.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: Kind of in addition to, like, a contemporary societal critique, you know?
Meredith: Yeah. The sort of... disabling factor.
Mary: So that also made me think of that.
Meredith: As we've been talking about this, I'm thinking "One and a Half Stars" could (laughs) also be, sort of, the rating of the experience... of the internet and- or of addiction. I give it one and a half stars.
Mary: It sucks. That could definitely be it, too. Cool.
Meredith: I think we did it.
Mary: I think we did. I definitely got a lot more out of that. I feel like that- that discussion. I came in with less, kind of, preconceived, like, ideas.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: So it was great to talk it out.
Meredith: It was just a lot of fun.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: All right. Next up-
Mary: -what is our next stop Meredith?
Meredith: It's "Quiet Amplifier." And that was the one that- when this album came out, and we were emailing about it, I sort of claimed it as my initial favorite. Listen to the next episode, and we'll see if I continue to feel that way.
Mary: Yeah, make sure to subscribe to us and follow us on @wwlypodcast on Instagram and, the same, wwlypodcast@gmail.com for... if you want to talk to us. Please be nice to us. We're just doing this... because we want to (laughs).
Meredith: We're just fans.
Mary: We're just fans (laughs).
Meredith: Got no delusions of grandeur here.
Mary: But we're also super interested in having conversations about Wilco, so open to... differing opinions of course, but respectfully. Please be respectful. Because Wilco will love you, and we will... love you if you're nice to us (laughs).
Meredith: Wilco Will Love You. Always remember.
Mary: Always remember. It's why we named the podcast. Alright.
Meredith: Alright. Go in peace.
Mary: Cool.
Meredith: Wilco Will Love You.
Mary: Wilco Will Love You.
Meredith: Goodbye.
Mary: Bye.
(Outro: Wilco Will Love You is co-hosted by Mary MacLane and me, Meredith Coons. It is edited by Greta Stromquist and recorded at Portola Studios. Theme music by Adam Nash. You can rate and review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe at Apple Podcasts, or wherever you prefer to listen, so that you don't miss an episode.)