Mary and Meredith continue their discussion of songs from the Wilco album Ode to Joy with "We Were Lucky." They talk about being in the right headspace for certain songs, stressful instrumentation, and even Orff instruments.
(Theme music fades in: guitar strumming, slide guitar glides in. Music fades out as the co-hosts Mary MacLane Mellas and Meredith Hobbs Coons begin to speak.)
Mary: Hello, Meredith.
Meredith: Hello, Mary.
Mary: Why are we here?
Meredith: Well, we're here to talk about Wilco, I can tell you that.
Mary: Wilco Will Love You.
Meredith: They will.
Mary: They will.
Meredith: That's what they've agreed to.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: They've agreed to do it. I'm not putting words in their mouth.
Mary: Nope.
Meredith: I'm not. I'm quoting them. And this is, as Mary said (laughs) Wilco Will Love You, which is a podcast by fans about the music and influence of-
Meredith and Mary: Wilco.
Mary: Yes. And today we are talking about "We Were Lucky."
Meredith: Mhmm. Yes, we are.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: I'll be honest and say that of the songs on this album, I think that this... stands out as my least favorite, which is not to say that I... dislike it. I just find myself being a little more critical of it, which is not to say that I don't have good things to say about it, because I do. And I'm eager to share... those as well as some of my personal qualms, which just might not be true for everyone.
Mary: I'm feeling the same way... it kind of bums me out, honestly, because I kind of want to like this song the most, because it's like the most out there.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: It kind of sticks out like a sore thumb. I appreciate Wilco's more experimental avenues.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: Like, I really do. And I like to listen to them... critically.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: How about we listen to it-
Meredith: -and see if we change our minds?
Mary: And see if we change our minds, because we just need to talk about this.
Meredith: Mhmm. We need to talk about it (laughs). We need to clear the air (laughs).
Mary: Here is "We Were Lucky."
(Music fades in. Jeff Tweedy sings "There was a pop in my ear/ As I left the atmosphere/ Dragging behind my mind/ It's too late/ Don't say it." Music fades out.)
Mary: All right.
Meredith: I'm glad we did that, actually.
Mary: We actually kind of debated whether we wanted to listen to it again (laughs).
Meredith: (Laughing) which is so not fair.
Mary: I know (sighs).
Meredith: You know, one thing that I just want to throw out there right away?
Mary: What?
Meredith: This is a depressing song, and I think that if you or I were in a different stage of our lives, where we were experiencing heartbreak currently, it would really resonate differently. And it might be our favorite on the album. But neither of us are there. We're both pretty content in relationships-
Mary: -yeah, pretty stable-
Meredith: -and happy, but I can think of... times in my life when I've been really brokenhearted where I would have listened to this, and I would have felt the hell out of it.
Mary: And even, like, the guitar would feel less grating, because it would feel like-
Meredith: -like you're feeling
Mary: -my feelings.
Meredith: (Laughs).
Mary: So the- actually, there are three guitar breaks in this song, not only two. It's just too many. I'm sorry.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: It's just too many. And they're too long.
Meredith: It's a lot.
Mary: And it's kind of stressful.
Meredith: (Laughs).
Mary: But you know what, there are times- I will say- there are times when I can listen to this song all the way through and, like, really appreciate it. And then there's times when I... skip it.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: And that's most of the time.
Meredith: Yeah. You know what else I think... I feel when I hear this song? (Laughs) is a little bit of "mom and dad are fighting." (Laughs).
Mary: Oh! Wow.
Meredith: No, it's the sense. Not that- right?
Mary: Brings about those feelings?
Meredith: A little bit? Not like my personal mom and dad, but you know what I mean? Like, when you, kind of, read the- the autobiography Let's Go (So We Can Get Back)... and you've listened to Sukierae, and you have this sort of sense... of them as a couple, and you buy their... love story, I think more than ever before, because these things exist now to reference... and appreciate. So now when you hear these songs- he's totally written them before. Like, throughout he's written songs about them fighting or not getting along. They've always been there.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: But listening to it now, even though it's totally normal and natural and, like, probably resolved- may have even been totally in his own head. I'm in the process of writing a song right now that seems really final about something in my relationship, but it was just like, he was on a business trip (laughs) and I hadn't heard from him in, like, a day and I was like, "That's it. He's leaving me." And (laughs) I wrote it from that place, even though that wasn't reality. So maybe he wrote that from a place that wasn't reality, too. Like, that's entirely possible. But listening as a fan, I'm just like, "Oh, no!"
Mary: Yeah. I totally know that feeling, too, where you're like... it's stressful.
Meredith: Yeah, it's like, "That's it. I'm dumped." (Laughs).
Mary: I had kind of thought of maybe... this is a dream.
Meredith: Mm. Maybe!
Mary: That's kind of like how you talk about a dream. Like, "from where I was standing, I could see this and this and this."
Meredith: Yes.
Mary: And it's kind of like, he's in nature. And then he's in an auditorium. But it also feels like it's memories? Like, "We were lucky/ I was yours/ and you didn't mind being mine." And then later, he says, "I'm yours. And you didn't mind being mine.
Meredith: Mhmm. I caught that, too.
Mary: That flip.
Meredith: She's still in past tense, and he's in present. And it's like, "What happened?!" (Laughs).
Mary: I feel like it's these, kind of like, paths crossing, but not converging?
Meredith: Yes. Right.
Mary: It's really interesting. But for some reason, it gave off this kind of, like, dream sequence-
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: It's like a potential future or a potential past future.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: That could have happened, or it just kind of feels like a- a theoretical.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: One of the things that made me think of it is that... this song kind of... reminds me of "A Day in the Life." I think "A Day in the Life" is better (laughs) of course, because it's one of the most amazing songs ever written, so that's not even really a dig at this song.
Meredith: That's not very fair. Yeah.
Mary: Because that's kind of a dream sequence. And then it has sections of like, kind of stressful instrumentation.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: And it happens several times, but something about the way the Beatles... arranged that- it's more orchestral, and it's shorter.
Meredith: Mhmm. Mhmm.
Mary: It happens frequently. But it's also used as a transition. It's just a little bit better utilized in that song, I think.
Meredith: Right. And it felt, maybe, dreamier, because it goes into very different styles within the song, and it kind of needs that orchestral section to bridge them. But when it's the same thing in between those big instrumental builds, it doesn't feel as- as earned, somehow.
Mary: If they'd ended it- done, you know, the first... couple verses, then they had their instrumental, and then one more verse. And just ended on the verse? And that would have been perfect for me. I think I would have really liked this song.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: If it was short? But there are other songs of theirs like "Side with the Seeds" and... "Ashes of American Flags" that have these kind of stressful... instrumentals that are recurring, but... I feel like they're a little bit more accomplished in those two songs?
Meredith: Right.
Mary: Those are two of my favorite Wilco songs, in fact. So I- I think I really wanted to... really like this one, because it- it feels like it follows that pattern of Wilco songs I like.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: But it's just a little bit too grating.
Meredith: Again, I think that you and I are just really not in the right space to appreciate it fully. Because we might have been like, "I needed that additional processing time!" if we were in a different place.
Mary: Yeah. And I know I've had times like when I first heard this song, I actually really liked it.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: And I don't hate it.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: I have to be in the right mood.
Meredith: Right. And in their defense, it seems fun... as hell to play.
Mary: Yeah. I mean, this is what they do. They can do this. Like, we were talking about how they can play really great- "Love is Everywhere," in the next episode- and- they do that well, but they can also do this.
Meredith: Yes they can.
Mary: And you know what? I always appreciate Wilco for going there.
Meredith: Right!
Mary: Even if it's not the most listenable song, they went there, and I appreciate it. Not a lot of bands have the freedom or... confidence to do something like this.
Meredith: I agree with you.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: We noticed some... cool... instrumental things, besides the obvious. Like... the marimba, and- I caught later- also a guitar- it was some kind of a... xylophone- an Orff instrument, actually! (Laughs).
Mary: Ah!
Meredith: Is a term that I've heard used for them, because I was in an Orff instrument group-
Mary: Ah! What?!
Meredith: -in third grade. We met before school (laughs).
Mary: That's amazing.
Meredith: Uh huh. I think it was, like, Mondays and Wednesdays it was choir before school, and then Tuesdays and Thursdays it was (laughs) Orff instrument group before school.
Mary: Are those, like, mallet instruments?
Meredith: I guess so. It was probably some... White dude who decided he could call all of this class of instruments, that existed long before he did, all the same thing.
Mary: (Laughs).
Meredith: Just because (laughs) he thought to classify them. But anyway, yeah, I was in that club. Now you know that about me. But yeah, it's some kind of a mallet instrument.
Mary: Yeah. Mhmm.
Meredith: But it's kind of doubling, but also not quite doubling, the vocal melody, throwing in some extra... notes. It adds a cool... effect that they do that, that it's the xylophone and then the guitar as well.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: Both kind of piling on... with the vocal. I think that's a cool touch.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: We've discussed the marching aspect of "Before Us," and in that one, it's kind of more like a happy hike (laughs).
Mary: Yeah, and this is like a dirge.
Meredith: This is- (laughs). Yeah.
Mary: (Laughs) it's Iike a funeral song.
Meredith: Right (laughs). It's much more funereal. For sure.
Mary: Yes.
Meredith: And then- what do you think's going on with the little?- there's like a little shaker thing. It sounds like a distorted rattle snake.
Mary: Yeah! The (makes rattlesnake sound)-
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: -like, that happens.
Meredith: But there's a distortion there. There's a little bit of a fuzz, like it's-
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: I don't know what they did to that.
Mary: Yeah. There is a lot going on with this song.
Meredith: And for the record, I don't think it was an actual rattlesnake.
Mary: I know. Don't worry, Meredith.
Meredith: That's good. What if it was, though?
Mary: I don't know if that would be weird... freaky... cool-
Meredith: I don't know.
Mary: I mean, if they just found a rattlesnake and were like, "Well, we can... use this."
Meredith: Or... a dead one. Fascinating image, I've got to say. I've gotta toot my own (laughs) horn there.
Mary: It is.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: A little rattle.
Meredith: I put that in your head: Wilco playing an actual rattlesnake on a track. Try to... shake that image.
Mary: Nope, not happenin.'
Meredith: We talked about that song for longer than we talked about "Citizens," (laughs) which is like your favorite (laughs)-
Mary: I know.
Meredith: -on the album.
Mary: It's one of my favorites.
Meredith: How did we do that?
Mary: I don't know.
Meredith: I think we were just really trying to give it an honest shot when our original reaction is to not appreciate it as much as it maybe deserves.
Mary: Yeah. I think it creates for, actually, a more interesting discussion when we're not just like, (high pitched voice) "We love it."
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: It's healthy to talk about things that you don't like or you're not comfortable with.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: It helps you form your opinions. So all that to say-
Meredith: -mhmm-
Mary: -I think we're ready to sign off.
Meredith: I think so.
Mary: Don't forget to... follow us on Instagram, @wwlypodcast, and subscribe on your favorite podcasting avenue of choice.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: And you can email us at wwlypodcast@gmail... just be... nice.
Meredith: Codes of conduct, people.
Mary: We want some real... decent, fruitful discussion.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: The haters can go start their own podcast
Meredith: I wouldn't be mad at other people-
Mary: No! There needs to be -there's a deficit of Wilco podcasts, and not-
Meredith:-a dearth.
Mary: There is.
Meredith: There is.
Mary: There is a dearth.
Meredith: I agree-
Mary: -and-
Meredith: -and a deficit.
Mary: We're the first one, as far as we know. That's sad. So... there needs to be more.
Meredith: Groundbreaking, that's what we are.
Mary: Alright.
Meredith: Okie dokie. Remember, most of all, that Wilco Will Love You.
Mary: Yes, they will.
Meredith: (Singing) yes, they will.
Mary: They do! They do!
Meredith: They already do!
Mary: They already do! Because you're listening to this podcast, and you care about Wilco.
Meredith: That's right.
Mary: So, alright. Signing off. Bye!
Meredith: Bye!
(Outro: Wilco Will Love You is co-hosted by Mary MacLane and me, Meredith Coons. It is edited by Greta Stromquist and recorded at Portola Studios. Theme music by Adam Nash. You can rate and review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe at Apple Podcasts, or wherever you prefer to listen, so that you don't miss an episode.)