Mary and Meredith continue their track-by-track discussions of songs from the Wilco album Ode to Joy with "White Wooden Cross." They delve into themes of loss, finality, and the myth of the suffering artist as well as Zelda: Breath of the Wild and real life Wilco applications.
(Theme music fades in: guitar strumming, slide guitar glides in. Music fades out as the co-hosts Mary MacLane Mellas and Meredith Hobbs Coons begin to speak.)
Meredith: Hello.
Mary: Hello.
Meredith: I'm Meredith.
Mary: And I'm Mary.
Meredith: Hello.
Mary: Hello.
Meredith: Hello. How many times do you think we could say hello in an intro?
Mary: (Fading out like an echo) hello hello hello hello hello.
Meredith: Probably a lot more. But... we don't need to indulge that any further than we have.
Mary: I agree.
Meredith: I just want everyone to know that we could.
Mary: We can do whatever we want.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: Welcome to Wilco Will Love You.
Meredith: It's a podcast by fans... about the music and influence of Wilco.
Mary: Okay, so... on to... our song of the day, which is "White Wooden Cross," which for me is kind of- it feels like an anomaly in the Wilco catalog. And I can't quite wrap my mind around it. And I know it's one of your favorites, so I'm really excited to hear what you have to say on this one.
Meredith: Oh. (Laughs).
Mary: I really enjoy this song. I don't know why it kind of feels really different from other Wilco songs. There's something about it-
Meredith: What I can tell you, is that piano part the little (mimics piano) dun-dun dun dun-dun.
Mary: Okay, is that a piano?
Meredith: I don't know. I think it is. What do you think it is?
Mary: I kinda thought it was a distorted guitar?
Meredith: Maybe, but it kind of sounds like keys to me.
Mary: It probably is keys.
Meredith: It sounds like keys to my ear. But I don't know. We're about to listen again.
Mary: Yeah, so we can figure that out.
Meredith: We'll dive in. And we'll report back.
Mary: Alright! Here is "White Wooden Cross."
(Music fades in: Jeff Tweedy sings "What would I do?/ What would I do?/ If a white wooden cross meant that I'd lost you/ I asked myself how would I let go?/ And a thought appeared like a morning dew." Music fades out.)
Meredith: Yay.
Mary: All right, we're back. How was "White Wooden Cross," Meredith? What are you thinking?
Meredith: (Delighted) ooh! (With emphasis) I love this song so much. It's (laughs) a song about imagining that you've lost someone really important to you, when you're kind of confronted with this... wooden cross on the side of the road-
Mary: -which is something you see, like, every day.
Meredith: Right. Absolutely. In honor of people who've lost their lives in car accidents.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And sometimes you'll see a teddy bear attached to one, and then that really messes you up. It's just... so... beautiful and buoyant somehow? For the subject matter? It just lifts my spirits in a way that feels almost wrong (laughs).
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: But I like it? I'm not mad at it?
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And we kind of finally settled on... that piano part being both a piano and a guitar part, if only just to say that we're both right... and claim that if only-
Mary: I think it's both.
Meredith: But it really does sound like, yeah.
Mary: Distorted guitar and a piano part.
Meredith: It sounds like they're doubling, doing some kind of doubling.
Mary: It does, but it's very tight.
Meredith: But- it is and it just floats in, and just gives you a little lift. Almost to just kind of keep you elevated when it's grappling with such an- weird existential thought.
Mary: "If a white wooden cross meant that I'd lost you."
Meredith: I guess though, it kind of plays as a love song. It is dark, but I think ultimately it is kind of a lighter song that's like- because when you think about how much it would tear you up inside to lose someone, it is... affirming of the love that you have for them.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And so I think that it's kind of a celebration of "Oh, my gosh! It would tear me apart if something happened to you! Wow! What a beautiful thing to think about! (Laughs) you must mean a lot to me!" That's got to be what it is. Because when that line comes around, even though it's acknowledging that the loss would have occurred, it's... in a way that's almost like it's saying, "I love you."
Mary: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: Just because... this is Tweedy writing this song, I believe his wife has had pretty scary bouts of cancer in the past, so I'm sure this whole mortality idea is something- And I know he's lost his dad, and I think his mom, too.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: So you know, it's something he's dealt with in his life and has had the fear of that, I'm sure, totally take hold of him before. So this song feels very personal and very universal at the same time, kind of like when you talk about, like, artists... it's almost like the more personal the work, the more universal it is? Like, the more people can actually relate to it? And so that's... after reading-
Meredith: -right-
Mary: -his books and just being aware of his life, it felt very personal.
Meredith: Right. I feel like that's something that we keep coming back to, and I like that we keep coming back to it, because I'm a huge believer in that. That's how we connect with other people in our lives. I mean, women, I guess, traditionally do it more- the "troubles telling?" I read this book called You're The Only One I Can Tell, the author escapes me right now, but there was a whole chapter on "troubles telling," and how it's a way that women tend to forge connections with each other and bond. And so when you're making a new friend, you're kind of gauging how much you can tell them. And I think that the artists that we tend to respond to more than... any others are the ones that feel like friends, like we're having that "troubles telling" exchange with them?
Mary: Ah. Interesting.
Meredith: And I'm not saying that it's unique to women bonding, I think that maybe men have just been scared away from it more in their lives because of the societal rules that kind of govern us all. I think that that's definitely a part of the whole experience of listening to songs like the songs that Jeff Tweedy writes.
Mary: Yeah. For sure.
Meredith: Especially the songs he's been writing... more recently as they've gotten more personal.
Mary: Kind of like since Warm and- yeah. Even Sukierae.
Meredith: Yes.
Mary: Which I know was made while his wife was battling cancer. With his sons. But you know, as sad as it is... when life gives you lemons, you can write- you write songs about it.
Meredith: You write Sukierae.
Mary: There's a really great... interview with Tweedy, I think it was quite a few years ago, but it really has stuck with me for a long time. You can find it on YouTube, I don't-
Meredith: -mhmm.
Mary: But someone was talking to him about the whole concept of the struggling artist.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: And how there's this kind of preconception that great artists are artists that go through a lot of really horrible things in their lives and go through a lot of pain and that they're creating because they have pain. And they're brilliant artists because they have...
Meredith: Mhmm. Yeah.
Mary: ... struggles and addiction and tragedy happen. And Tweedy just had, I thought, the most beautiful response that feels like a very healthy response: artists don't create because they have pain, they are people who create in spite of pain.
Meredith: Yes.
Mary: Everyone has pain, and everyone has the ability to create. He kind of was- was talking about how that stereotype is very unhealthy, because then there's these young people who think I have to have, like, gone through horrible things in order to create good art.
Meredith: Mhmm. Right.
Mary: And really, everyone goes through hard things. And the people who are... really good artists are creating in spite of that, and they're creating beauty. And not to say they aren't writing about really sad subjects like this song, they're still creating in spite of the hard things that everyone goes through. I always keep that in mind when I listen to Tweedy's writing, because I was so struck by what he said in that interview. Like, the portrayal of like... Vincent van Gogh-
Meredith: -right-
Mary: -in pop culture.
Meredith: Yes.
Mary: Like, the, um... films made about him and such. And, um, he was truly a person who had... extremely... difficult struggles, like with mental illness. But he wasn't brilliant because he was mentally ill. He wasn't- he was brilliant, because he was brilliant. And he created in spite of being mentally ill, and having addiction problems. That- actually- those issues really only came about in, like, the last three years of his life. And a lot of people think like, "Oh, he was this great artist, because he was crazy." He actually was not struggling that way for most of his career.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: And towards the end, he was creating in spite of it. There's a lot of romanticizing of the struggling artist in our culture. And so I appreciate that Tweedy tries to dispel that. Everyone has struggles. It's not just artists-
Meredith: -yeah-
Mary: -who, like, go and create stuff, because they're... struggling. It's- everyone struggles. It's not a unique thing to artists. So-
Meredith: Right. You could also argue that the healthier you get in... terms of those things as an artist, the more you work through it in therapy or... find ways to balance things out for yourself, the better able to articulate things you are, and the better able you are to connect to people who might be struggling similarly.
Mary: And I mean, Tweedy is an absolutely great example of that, because he... struggled with addiction for years. Up until like, fairly recently. If you've read, um, Let's Go (So We Can Get Back), he very candidly lays out his struggle with addiction, and- we keep talking about how- and I think a lot of critics have been talking about- how Tweedy's songs are, like, the most honest they've ever been in terms of his lyrics. Some of the new Wilco albums are some of the best, and his solo record was one of his best, some of his best work. And so it kind of goes to show, like, he's actually in a- I mean, I don't know him- but it seems like he's in a relatively better place in his life now than he was-
Meredith: -yeah-
Mary: -then. And he's creating some of the best work he's created... ever. So that is a great testament to the struggling artist... stereotype that's not necessarily a healthy thing. It's not a healthy thing... at all, actually.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: So.
Meredith: Exactly.
Mary: I kind of got us off the rails there.
Meredith: (Laughs) I liked it.
Mary: Because I love talking about that.
Meredith: I liked it. It's a good topic. To jump back in, I love the shakers.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: This is another one with really standout percussion. Again.
Mary: Yes, because you've got that riff that we were talking about- the syncopated riff- but yeah, it's beautiful. Beautiful drums. Am I wrong? And tell me if this is totally out of left field... This song felt like it had almost Like a Latin influence.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: Have you felt that?
Meredith: Yeah. Yeah, I felt it to kind of a-
Mary: -okay-
Meredith: -at least some of the... strumming was sort of-
Mary: -that riff?-
Meredith: -Flamenco style-ish to me.
Mary: Yeah. Yes. The acoustic guitar and the-
Meredith: -and the percussion, too.
Mary: Yeah. It feels a little bit different from other Wilco songs because I don't know if that I can't really name another song that would have had that kind of influence in it.
Meredith: Whether consciously or... subconsciously.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: Yeah. Of course, I love the harmonies. That... is just a given. And... that is... also true of this song.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And just looking at the lyrics, it's kind of... interesting, because it's kind of hard to- at least- looking at them here, it's not super cut and dry. What's the chorus? What's the pre-chorus?
Mary: Or a pre-chorus/ chorus/ pre-chorus all kind of sandwiched... together?
Meredith: The beginning of the song has two lines that are not in that "What would I do" refrain. I guess it's a refrain, but it's kind of stand-alone later in the song. Technically, you would think refrain, but it's just two lines, and then the refrain, and then a verse. And then the "Tell me no lies" part, which may be that's the pre-chorus? So I don't know.
Mary: I don't know.
Meredith: Typically, bridges don't repeat. And then you've got the final verse. It ends on the verse, and then it's just out. And not only does it end on the verse, but it ends on a couplet.
Mary: Ah.
Meredith: So there's a finality about it. And... he's by himself in that last line, too, which is interesting.
Mary: Yeah. Instead of, like, kind of talking to someone.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: Because the beginning almost feels like a story. And then it feels like he's relating the story to someone and expressing his fears.
Meredith: It doesn't have the repetition. It also abandons the repetition. Because before "and my blood ran cold, my blood ran cold," which is the same melodically as, "what would I do? What would I do?"
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: But then here, it's- the repetition is gone. "There's so much more out there than here where I stand." So that part, it doesn't repeat, and it doesn't even rhyme. The rhyme is... at the end. It's that second line of... that little part that's kind of connected musically? It's like the second line of that, and then that last... line, but it's interesting to me, because when it does it before, "What would I do? What would I do if a white wooden cross meant that I'd lost you" it all rhymes. And, "My blood ran cold, my blood ran cold" - repetition "as these sad ideas pass through," and that rhymes with the earlier "and a thought appeared like a morning dew."
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: It also connects to the "What I do if a white wooden cross meant that I lost you." And then at the end, "Than here where I stand/ I blow my horn for the whole band." And so it's like this- not really connected as much to the rest of the song. It's this rhymed couplet that the song ends on, it doesn't go back to anything that repeated before, even, a previous rhyme scheme or anything like that. It's kind of interesting. Like he's been thinking about it, and then he comes up with the solution at the end, which is kind of cool.
Mary: Yeah, it resolves.
Meredith: Mhmm. I'm formulating my thoughts as I go. So, (laughs).
Mary: That's- no, it's making sense.
Meredith: It's just fun to kind of- again, I'm doing it in real time. And then another fun little thing that I'm just gonna throw out there, because it's funny to me, and I think my husband is fun. My husband (laughs) Kevin, I got him Zelda: Breath of the Wild for Christmas this year, because he's the only one in our family that seems- that wanted that game, that was vocal about it, and he was kind of feeling like he was missing out on the game. And so he's been playing that. And (laughs) when the little, I'm gonna say this wrong, but the bokoblins, when they see Link and, they blow their horn. And it- they're just like, announcing that an intruder is there, that Link is there, and they all go fight him.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: Every time that happens, Kevin references this line and goes, "Oh, he's blowing his horn for the whole band!"
Mary: Life applications of Wilco.
Meredith: (Laughs).
Mary: I love it.
Meredith: Mhmm. That it for this song?
Mary: I feel like it is
Meredith: I feel like it is, too.
Mary: That was a good conversation.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: Thank you, Meredith.
Meredith: Thank you, Mary. That was enjoyable.
Mary: It was. I learned a lot about this song. I feel like I'm gonna learn on a- a lot of them, and I'm gonna say that every time.
Meredith: You know-
Mary: -but you know what? We're all learning!
Meredith: We've got "Citizens" next.
Mary: "Citizens" is next, one of my favorites on the album.
Meredith: I'm excited to hear your take.
Mary: Yes.
Meredith: Being that that is the case.
Mary: The important thing: subscribe to us, Wilco Will Love You on your favorite podcasting avenue. Follow us on Instagram, @wwlypodcast, and you can email us with questions or comments, if you are polite, at wwlypodcast@gmail.com. You know, be on the lookout for the next episode, talking about "Citizens."
Meredith: That's right. Track seven.
Mary: Track seven! Of eleven, I believe. We're getting down to the-
Meredith: -getting down to it. And remember-
Mary: -Wilco-
Meredith: -Will-
Mary: -Love You!
Meredith: They're obligated.
Mary: Alright.
Meredith: They did that to themselves (laughs).
Mary: They did. (Laughs) they did. With an anthem! It works.
Meredith: It does. Alright. Bye.
Mary: Bye.
(Outro: Wilco Will Love You is co-hosted by Mary MacLane and me, Meredith Coons. It is Edited by Greta Stromquist and recorded at Portola Studios. Theme music by Adam Nash. You can rate and review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe at Apple Podcasts, or wherever you prefer to listen, so that you don't miss an episode.)