Mary and Meredith keep on discussing tracks from the Wilco album Ode to Joy with "Citizens." They talk about Wilco's phenomenal rhythm section and really delve into the nautical themes in the lyrics.
(Theme music fades in: guitar strumming, slide guitar glides in. Music fades out as the co-hosts Mary MacLane Mellas and Meredith Hobbs Coons begin to speak.)
Meredith: Hey there.
Mary: Hello! Meredith?
Meredith: Yes. Hello, Mary.
Mary: How are we doing today?
Meredith: Doing great. Just listened to "Citizens."
Mary: "Citizens!" By Wilco. This is Wilco Will Love You.
Meredith: Wilco Will Love You, that is, a podcast by fans about the music and influence (whispered) of Wilco-
Mary: (singsong and spooky) -of Wilco.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: Why don't we just dive into "Citizens?" Because... this one is meaty.
Meredith: Thaaat's right.
Mary: All right. Let's listen.
(Music fades in. Jeff Tweedy sings "White lies/ White lies/ Women and men/ Citizens/ Carry your own cross/ Careless/ Careless/ You are the albatross." Music fades out.)
Mary: We just listened to "Citizens"
Meredith: I see exactly why in the last episode, you mentioned that this is a standout track for you. And one of your favorites. You also said in a previous episode, that... you really key into the drum and bass parts, and that is very consistent. Listening to that song, knowing that piece of information, I think, "Oh, of course, this is one of Mary:'s favorites. Of course."
Mary: Yes. And not just for the drums and bass. That is a great part, very punchy. And-
Meredith: -they're the stars of the show.
Mary: Oh, yeah. One of the best rhythm sections in a band of all time of my opinion. Yeah, I enjoy the feel of the song. It has a very good feel. But this one intrigued me... more for the lyrics, which is not usually my forte. I even had to look something up in this song when I was looking at the lyrics. This one, versus a lot of the other songs, has a very political tone.
Meredith: It does.
Mary: Repeating "White Lies" is just like-
Meredith: -mhmm-
Mary: -we get told a lot of white lies as citizens.
Meredith: Mhm. Mmhmm.
Mary: A lot, so... they're not so innocent, I don't think. They're not really white lies.
Meredith: No, no, they're- (laughs) they're not.
Mary: No, I appreciate that. But there's this really interesting motif of birds in this song.
Meredith: Right.
Mary: And I had to look up, "Why does he mentioned an albatross?"
Meredith: Oh yeah.
Mary: And- and you might know this.
Meredith: I know where you're going.
Mary: I just looked this up while we were listening. So the albatross is, like, kind of a curse.
Meredith: Yes.
Mary: Is that what you're talking about?
Meredith: Yes.
Mary: Okay, it's like a literary-
Meredith: -uh huh-
Mary: -curse.
Meredith: Again, Samuel Taylor Coleridge. Again.
Mary: Ah.
Meredith: Uh huh. I mentioned him first with the Aeolian harp.
Mary: Yes.
Meredith: What song was that... "Before Us."
Mary: Yes.
Meredith: "Before Us." Yeah, with the guitar... making a noise of its own accord with the door opening. That made me think of Coleridge's "The Aeolian Harp."
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And now here we are back to Coleridge with the albatross. From "Rime of the Ancient Mariner."
Mary: It's like a sailor kills a bird and then, like, has to wear it and it's like a-
Meredith: -he has to wear it around his neck-
Mary: -really crazy curse and like-
Meredith: -mhmm. Everyone on the ship dies and comes back to life as zombies.
Mary: Oh, man.
Meredith: (Laughs) and then he has to tell people about it for the rest of his life. That's what the "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" is. He feels compelled to keep telling people about what he did.
Mary: That's incredible.
Meredith: It's good. You should read it.
Mary: I should. I feel like I've read parts of it.
Meredith: Yeah, you probably have. You've probably been made to at some point along the way. I can't say that it was purely my own taste that led me there (laughs). It was definitely assigned reading, but I really liked it. I'm a fan of literature. There you go.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: I'm not an expert. I'm a fan, thank you very much.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: (Laughs).
Mary: Anyway, that's a really cool reference that I just now understood.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: The verse, the "Pine box/ Stop the clocks."
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: "Why can't both be true?" (laughs). "High Times/ High crimes/ Medals for you to salute." That's a packed one. I mean, "pine box," obviously, is a coffin.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: And "stop the clocks..." death? Or just everything is gone?
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: The whole political tone of this song is...
Meredith: Yeah. I feel like there are possibly references here that... I'm not necessarily getting, poets I haven't read or haven't read in a long time. I know that he draws from... sources like that, or he has in the past. He's drawn from favorite writers... for inspiration, or just kind of reworked a line here and there, or used a writing exercise recommended by them. And, uh, I'm a fan of... that type of strategy, but I feel like there are possibly references here that I'm not totally picking up on. I feel like I'm missing something a little bit when I read them. Maybe that's not there at all. If you know, then you know where to reach us, and you can let us-
Mary: -yeah! You should-
Meredith: -know.
Mary: We might need help on this one. The whole song feels kind of post-apocalyptic (laughs).
Meredith: Yeah, it does (laughs).
Mary: Or like some kind of other society... that we're not that far from. It feels bleak.
Meredith: It's bleaker than "Everyone Hides," for sure (laughs).
Mary: Yes. Which we discovered is not so bleak.
Meredith: Which is happy!
Mary: But yeah, the, like, lot of "white lies-"
Meredith: Yep
Mary: He says that a lot of times.
Meredith: And it's almost like the repetition of "white lies-" it's not even the white lies that you're necessarily being... told, and being told or- you know- discovering are not quite so innocent in nature, but it's also maybe the lies that we have to tell ourselves to cope. Maybe it's also that.
Mary: Yeah. I, um, had another thought about the instrumentation really quick, actually. The vocals- I love that harmony on "white lies." When you were just talking about white lies? That is a great harmony.
Meredith: Yeah.
Mary: And the kind of, like, dual guitar part that we have with-
Meredith: -mhmm-
Mary: -that complements the harmony is really great. Just the flow of the song in general to me is just really... great.
Meredith: Maybe it's the albatross reference, maybe it's something else, but doesn't it kind of have a feeling about it like you're on a ship?
Mary: It has a nautical theme. I think we can say that.
Meredith: Sure.
Mary: "High crimes" like high crimes of the sea.
Meredith: Mm. Right.
Mary: "Birdless skies," but then it's talking about a road at the beginning. I don't know.
Meredith: "Birdless skies" could be a reference back to the... albatross thing.
Mary: Ah, yes.
Meredith: He says, "You are the albatross," though.
Mary: Which means you're dead?
Meredith: That you were... the thing that was killed and... is cursing the killer.
Mary: (Laughs) is cursing everyone.
Meredith: Is cursing the killer.
Mary: There is a reference to a killer at the beginning
Meredith: Sort of, maybe, about being a victim to nationalism?
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: Just to get more political? (Laughs).
Mary: More political. I mean, this song is political. We can't get around it.
Meredith: Can't get around it. I think if you listen to and love Wilco, there are chances you don't like war a whole lot.
Mary: Yeah, I don't feel like they've ever been that secretive about their... ideals.
Meredith: I feel like they're pretty clear on that (laughs). I mean, there may be... people who absolutely love Wilco who are in the military. I'm sure there are.
Mary: Yeah.
Meredith: And, you know, maybe they skip past those songs. They don't listen to them or something? But- and you don't have to necessarily endorse every song by artists that you love.
Mary: Yeah, exactly.
Meredith: Just to throw that in there. But I endorse it.
Mary: I endorse it.
Meredith: That was that song, I think. Unless you have more.
Mary: I'm good on this one.
Meredith: I'm feeling good about it, too.
Mary: Hope you guys feel good about it, too.
Meredith: Mhmm.
Mary: And if you don't, email us at wwlypodcast@gmail.com, or don't.
Meredith: (Laughs) Or if you do feel good about it.
Mary: And if you don't feel good about it, just remember that kindness goes a long way, and... we'll gladly, uh, listen to you if you're respectful. And you can also follow us @wwlypodcast on Instagram. And you can follow us on your favorite podcasting site, wherever you listen to podcasts.
Meredith: Sure.
Mary: You can find us there.
Meredith: That's right.
Mary: Wilco Will Love You. Remember that.
Meredith: Always remember that.
Mary: Always remember that. We're here to remind you.
Meredith: Keep it in your breast pocket.
Mary: (Laughs) all right. Here we are, signing off: Mary-
Meredith: -and Meredith.
Mary: Bye!
Meredith: Goodbye.
(Outro: Wilco Will Love You is co-hosted by Mary MacLane and me, Meredith Coons. It is edited by Greta Stromquist and recorded at Portola Studios. Theme music by Adam Nash. You can rate and review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe at Apple Podcasts, or wherever you prefer to listen, so that you don't miss an episode.)